Insulation issues in new build home

MultiFuelBurner

QrizB said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

Was this in any literature 
We had no idea about the costs as we've been told the house is 'modern, ecological, and cost-effective', and offers ' most modern approaches to reducing energy bills'

See their other thread.
Specifically this post, and the brochure they screencapped.

"State-of-the-art green building technology allowing for reduced energy consumption" giving "clean, green, affordable and comfortable living".

MultiFuelBurner said:

At this rate to get your house up to temperature you will burn through £40 of electricity a day just on heating. Adjusting for some milder days over winter and the colder months £5-6k on heating alone.

Maybe, maybe not. £6k would be over 20,000kWh of heat, which is getting on for double the "average". And as Matt has pointed out, a house with a heat loss of 5kW is not unusual.

Probably closer to £3k for the year.

A correctly-configured heat pump should reduce that to £1k or less.

OP just out of interest, what do Octopus offer you if you ask for a heat pump quote? (I know Matt has opinions on Octopus heat pumps, but as a quote engine it's quick and easy.)

https://octopus.energy/get-a-heat-pump/

And you don't think panel heaters could equate to double the average for heating given the details we know? My 6 months of heating fag packet calculation came out just over £5k.

QrizB

MultiFuelBurner said:

And you don't think panel heaters could equate to double the average for heating given the details we know?

Panel heaters will not increase the amount of heat needed. It just costs more than gas, oil or LPG.

The Ofgem dual-fuel average was 12000kWh/yr of gas (now a little lower). Gas is only burned for heat, no-one runs their XBox on it. If your boiler is 90% efficient (and many aren't) that's 10800kWh of heat delivered to the home.

10800kWh of electricity, at 28p/kWh (the current SVT) costs £3024. The same amount of electricity on Octopus Agile (the tariff the OP has), avoiding the evening hump (and the OP says they do avoid it), might cost £2200.

I'll admit I might be an outlier but my annual gas use in this 1950s brick-built semi, with a similar floor area to the OP, is around 8000kWh.

MultiFuelBurner

QrizB said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

And you don't think panel heaters could equate to double the average for heating given the details we know?

Panel heaters will not increase the amount of heat needed. It just costs more than gas, oil or LPG.

The Ofgem dual-fuel average was 12000kWh/yr of gas (now a little lower). Gas is only burned for heat, no-one runs their XBox on it. If your boiler is 90% efficient (and many aren't) that's 10800kWh of heat delivered to the home.

10800kWh of electricity, at 28p/kWh (the current SVT) costs £3024. The same amount of electricity on Octopus Agile (the tariff the OP has), avoiding the evening hump (and the OP says they do avoid it), might cost £2200.

I'll admit I might be an outlier but my annual gas use in this 1950s brick-built semi, with a similar floor area to the OP, is around 8000kWh..

I wonder what the OP's EPC says for kWh usage for heat perhaps that can give them a better idea of costs and savings if they do invest in a heat pump.

However as was advised on the other thread installing a new wet system of heating throughout in a new build with pipes on top of walls may not be the look they want.

Panda126

Here's what the EPC rating says 

peter3hg

How does the EPC describe the main heating system?
My understanding is it is almost impossible to get an A rating with panel heaters, because the rating accounts for cost of heating as well as kWh.

Panda126

peter3hg said:

How does the EPC describe the main heating system?
My understanding is it is almost impossible to get an A rating with panel heaters, because the rating accounts for cost of heating as well as kWh.

It says very poor 

markin

You do have around 3 kwh peak of solar also don't you? Between that and your tariff you just about hit the average user, Heating to 21c only in well used rooms.

I hope you got the other 24 homes on Octopus!


Also be aware that the thermostats built into radiators tend to over read the room temp, so it may be clicking off far sooner than it should.

MultiFuelBurner

The good news is the ASHP grants available (£7500) do not excluded new house up to a certain age.

As has been suggested invite some installers round and get some prices.

Having seen the EPC legally their comments on the property are probably defensible with what they have done. Just lacking in one area.

However a group moan of 25 householders cannot hurt.

Have you spoken with your neighbours?

I would for the time being put your thermal imaging camera away and sell it on as that money is better spent on heating right now.

BellaBlondykeTheThird

Panda126 said:

We're on agile tariff and electricity was very cheap over few days during Christmas so we gave the house a full blast of heat for a few days, it's not like we won't heat the whole house. We set radiators on minimum 17 at night. But doesn't matter how much time we'll be heating it up or what temperature, it will always drop very fast once we turn the heating off. 

Agile might work well but tracker with these ridiculous heaters may provide your with cheaper electricity during the day and when it gets very cold when the sun goes down in winter and we hut that 4-7pm time when agile prices ramp up.

Just might save you a few quid.

Scot_39

Panda126 said:

matt_drummer said:

That heat loss calculation means that the house will require a constant 5kW of heat to maintain 21c inside when it is -4c outside..

With those heaters that is 120kWh a day of electricity just for heating, plus DHW and all the other electricity consumption. An expensive house in terms of energy costs.

In the current weather you would expect to be using at least 100kWh of electricity a day on heating alone.

The heating needs to be on constantly otherwise the house will get cold.

What were the developers thinking?

Profit of course!

I am surprised that any local authority let them build like that, or maybe I am not surprised.

An alternative heating source is required. The heat loss isn't terrible for a house that size so there's little prospect of reducing the heat loss much.

It could well be that the heat loss is actually greater than calculated if it has been poorly constructed.

A heat pump would reduce the heating cost to a third of that as a minimum, even less if done properly.

A gas or oil boiler is the next alternative if possible? Is it allowed in a new build?

Otherwise night storage heaters.

This is ridiculous. It's like paying another mortgage!
We had no idea how to read this report so thank you for helping us to understand it. 
We would never buy this house with this knowledge. We feel like we've been lied with their promises of eco cost effective house

In turn from bold above 
Profit of course!
No builder is going to fit expensive heating and then not reflect it - with potentially large profit - in their costs.
Many are not shy of the concept - one iirc reported profits of c£60k per home completion couple of years ago.
A heat pump would reduce the heating cost to a third of that as a minimum, even less if done properly.
And would have added to the cost - say 15k possibly 20k with underfloor in a large open plan property.
The epc says c7400kWh - that's c £2100 at svt - less on OPs Octopus tracker.
Many ashp may not be done properly - given sone posts here on winter performance - but let's stick with a third - that's a saving of c£1400 pa.
Less than a 10th of the likely impact on purchase price.
Were the OP and his neighbours willing to pay that extra 12k+ upfront in their deposit or via mortgage vs panel heaters ?
On a smaller property 1 or 2 bed in a cheaper area - say c150-200k how many purchasers could afford / qualify for the mortgage on the extra £10k for  a simpler wet install etc.  With an even lower potential energy cost saving as pay back.
Or worse repay it over say a 25-30+ year mortgage - which could see it doubled at current rates - so in effect 15k becomes 30k - so over or £1000 on annual payments regardless.

This is ridiculous. It's like paying another mortgage!
Coventional Electric heating is expensive. If your used to mains gas on a like for like basis - very expensive. 
That's the reason green lobby and now govt via grants are pushing ashp - to close that running cost gap - when ecouraging - soon to be forcing - dropping household emissions as aim to hit net zero.
But suspect you knew the heating fitted - it would be strange not to these days.  And the "very poor" on EPC should have highlighted it to you to think and find out - before completion. 
And as above - you would very likely have paid via purchase price instead anyway.
Now you have the choice.  But granted that can come with potential disturbance like fitting radiator pipework in a finished property etc.

From other posts 
1) EPC Estimates vs UK nominal Ofgem averages 
You have an EPC that tells you it could cost c7400kWh to Heat your home and water to some nominal level annually.
That's a fraction of the Ofgem cap in media headlines for years now.
The headline figures in media  - are based on now lower 11,500 kWh for gas (was 12,000kWh) - but if take 3kW+ per day for gas cooking - that's still over 10,500 kWh.
Not only is that 10,500 kWh much higher - that's also for a smaller home - iirc for a medium use profile - Ofgem suggest thats nominally for 2-3 bed - 2-3 persons.
And the Ofgem "high" consumption band duel fuel gas TDCV - one less published in media - for larger households / homes  - a much higher 17,000 kWh. 

So in that case well over double your large 4 bed properties 7,400 kWh EPC figure even allowing for gas cooking  and double even allowing for modern boiler losses.
So see no reason based on above and others comments on your loss certificate etc to dispute the promised sales glossy literature that the building standard as promised had - very good as EPC puts it - losses so eco creditionals. 
Assuming it meets them of course.

2) Running Costs
7,400 kWh at typical single rate electric DD svt average = £2,100 pounds for hw and heating (ignoring other non heating costs).  Less on likes of tracker in past months or agile tracker rates if time shifting.
You need to stop being to some extent being distracted by £s on winter bills per se and get back on topic anyway. And should not be overly extrapolating cold snap billing levels to annual overall cost estimates anyway.

And the kit needed to save on bills - as above costs £1000s if not £10,000s for a house your size (£15-20k figures are floated regularly for wet ashp from scratch for average properties). 
You have to invest to save on default - many of those posting here who pay least for heating - have invested very heavily - some I supect well into 5 figures to do so.
Let a builder load that kit into price - you could - as above - not just be paying for it - but  be paying near double on mortgage over lifetime anyway. And personally not sure I'd trust some to fit the best solution and fit it well.
Your well known brand panel heaters might have cost c£2.5-3k in total by comparison. They could have been even cheaper models.

Overall Id recommend getting back to your original root question and focus on external heat losses.

And any issues where shoddy build - has compromised the promised levels.

So gaps in insulation (invisible to you if) internally to walls and roof insulation or seals etc around fittings like doors windows and drainage outlets.

That is overall 

Do your external wall, roof and windows and associated insulation where required - meet the promised heat efficiencies.