Economy 10 Tariff

mmmmikey

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

My point is that some suppliers (and EDF is one) stand out because they increase their off-peak tariff, whilst reducing their peak rate tariff (i.e. they are cross-subsiding their mostly peak rate and standard rate customers) by increasing their off-peak prices to way above what they are paying for off-peak electricity, and doing it during the period when they know that all customers with storage heating will be using more off-peak electricity.

EDF have now returned their off-peak prices to "normal".

Actually they have increased their off-peak rates to almost the highest of any supplier for this region, so very far from "normal" by any stretch of anyone's imagination.  I don't give a damn what they were charging last year, the year before or at any other time, it's not relevant as I wasn't with EDF this time last year (I was with UW as it happens, as I am now).  The facts are that they massively increased their off-peak rate right before the onset of the cold weather period, whereas several other suppliers chose not to.

So the facts are that they massively redcued their peak day rate before the onset of the cold weather period, whereas several others chose not to.

Great news for those customers who need to supplement their aging storage heater output with instantaneous heating, making them an excellent choice for a large proportion of their customers, particularly the less savvy and vulnerable customers without the means to buy modern HHR storage heaters.

It's just a question of perspective.

JSHarris

I give up, I see no merit in pedantic argument about minutiae that is of zero relevance to anyone.  

I know for a fact that I switched from Good Energy to UW at the end of December 2022 because they hiked their off-peak tariff by way above any change in the wholesale price.

I know for a fact that I switched from EDF to UW a couple of weeks ago because they hiked their off-peak tariff way above any change in the wholesale price.

I frankly don't GIS what you want to pedantically argue about, facts are facts and I'm now paying a great deal less for off-peak electricity than EDF wanted to charge me.

FWIW, I know that UW aren't blameless, they pulled the same stunt at the start of the second quarter of 2023 and massively hiked their off-peak tariff, hence the reason I switched to EDF.

They are all playing games by trying to cross subsidise from one income stream to another.

Anyway, the power has gone off here now (we're running on the batteries) so I will lose internet in half an hour or so when the FTTC cabinet battery runs out (it only keeps the internet up for about 40 minutes when the grid goes down).  My guess is that, given the extent of the power outages from this storm I may be off-grid until sometime later tomorrow, maybe the day after.

mmmmikey

Hi @JSHarris , contradicting you again, but this time something I think you'll agree with....

Whether you preceive it as "game playing" or just "how the market works" IMHO the discussion is relevant to a large number of E7 / E10 or other legacy TOU tariff customers because it highlights (a) how big the differences between the suppliers can be on these tariffs, even though they are regulated by Ofgem, and (b) this is a constantly changing landscape so you need to be on the ball to make sure you've got the best deal.

Pleased you found a deal that works better for you and hope you don't have to keep changing in future.

MultiFuelBurner

It all sound like sour grapes from this vantage point.

Always chasing the best deal and not fixing when the deal was very good for night time usage with EDF. Now complaining when they normalise their rates.

WiseDad

QrizB: in reply to you message a few days back.  Yes, the Superdeal information you have quoted is correct. 

For the record, since Jan 2022 the Superdeal day rate has gone up by 31%, the night rate by 22.6%, the heating rate by 46.2% and the standing charge by 96.6%.  I don't know how this compares with increases seen by those on the standard variable rate but it is pretty obvious that the heating rate has been hiked out of proportion to the other rates (and is now, somewhat illogically, higher than the night rate).

Yes, we have a radio telemeter and I understand these may stop functioning in April 2024.  I understand that OVO are working on/considering an alternative (although its not clear if they will continue to support multi-rate tariffs besides Economy 7) but we have had no official communication on this.

I have previously dismissed E7 tariffs as it was desirable to keep a cheap rate heating boost in the afternoon (typically 2pm-4pm),  However, now that the heating rate has been increased so much, your suggestion of trying E7 instead is starting to look a possibility.  I don't know how our storage heaters would function with a 7 hour charge overnight, although I suspect this may not be as good as the present 2hrs + 5hrs at night.  However, if they are charged for 2 hrs on day rate and 5 hours on night rate my number crunching suggest a saving of 5-10% compared to our current superdeal tariff.  Maybe, this is intended to encourage those of us on 3 rate tariffs to shift to E7?

I can carry our some experiments to see how the heating might function under E7 but the only way of really knowing is to try it out.  But, if I switch to E7 I and don't find it satisfactory, I probably can't switch back to Superdeal.  On the other hand, being on E7 would open up the possibility to switch to E7 tariffs offered by other suppliers (as well as the option to have a smart meter).  I have details of OVO's E7 tariff and that of Octopus (which is better) but I cannot find details (ie the day and night rates) for other suppliers.  Where can I find these?  None of the comparison sites(nor the suppliers websites) I have tried seem to give these figures.

Incidentally, I don't think that investing in new (even better insulated) storage heaters is likely to be worthwhile.  Our house is occupied 24 hrs each day and the heat loss from the heaters from 7am to 2pm is sufficient to keep the house warm (but not too warm).  If they were better insulated, we would have to turn the fans on to extract the heat during this period so they would then function the same as the current ones.

Shifting to E7 would also require us to fit time clocks to each heater so they come on some time in the afternoon and again at night (and to enable us to experiment with different charging times).  At present the timing is all under the control of the RTS signal which triggers a contactor to turn the storage heaters (and immersion heater) on.

QrizB

WiseDad said:

I have previously dismissed E7 tariffs as it was desirable to keep a cheap rate heating boost in the afternoon (typically 2pm-4pm),  However, now that the heating rate has been increased so much, your suggestion of trying E7 instead is starting to look a possibility.  I don't know how our storage heaters would function with a 7 hour charge overnight, although I suspect this may not be as good as the present 2hrs + 5hrs at night. 

If you know the models of your storage heaters. you should be able to look up the heat input power and the total heat storage capacity. Most common models of UK storage heater will need seven hours of heating to fully charge. (Here's an example; the Dimplex XL12N stores 11.9kWh of heat and has a 1.7kW heating element. 1.7 times 7 makes 11.9.)

I know you said you designed your system carefully and it's possible your heaters are instead optimised for a five hour charge. Yuo should be able to check.

WiseDad said:

I can carry our some experiments to see how the heating might function under E7 but the only way of really knowing is to try it out.  But, if I switch to E7 I and don't find it satisfactory, I probably can't switch back to Superdeal.

You might not be able to switch back to Superdeal, no; it's on OVO's "soon ending support" list here. However OVO have a range of other tariffs that you can see here:
https://plans.ovoenergy.com/

Interestingly, Superdeal still appears on the list as "available for sale". You could check with them whether they can provide it to a smart meter.

They also offer Smart Economy 9 which gives nine hours a day of heating split overnight, afternoon and evening. Sadly the current off-peak rate is similar to your Superdeal "heat" rate of ~24p/kWh, so not particularly appealing.

WiseDad said:

I have details of OVO's E7 tariff and that of Octopus (which is better) but I cannot find details (ie the day and night rates) for other suppliers.  Where can I find these?  None of the comparison sites(nor the suppliers websites) I have tried seem to give these figures.

Fortunately you are in Southern region, the same region as @JSHarris and he's done a good job ferreting out E7 rates. I'm sure he's posted his findings somewhere on the board, but I can't find them right now
What I can find is this thread, where he shared four E7 tariffs:

• UW peak = 39.787p/kWh, off-peak = 11.199p/kWh
• Octopus peak = 36.810p/kWh, off-peak 15.310p/kWh
• Sainsbury's peak = 35.994p/kWh, off-peak = 12.895p/kWh
• EDF peak = 35.994p/kWh, off-peak 16.433p/kWh

Plus we alrady know OVO's:

• OVO peak = 33.11p/kWh, off-peak 18.32p/kWh

(Note that Sainsbury's are an E.ON Next white-label, so E.ON Next's tariff is likely to be identical.)

He's switched to Utility Warehouse, although UW don't get a very good press on this forum. I suspect if you were to drop him a PM he would share his full list with you; he might even post it here when he sees that I've tagged him.

WiseDad said:

Shifting to E7 would also require us to fit time clocks to each heater so they come on some time in the afternoon and again at night (and to enable us to experiment with different charging times).  At present the timing is all under the control of the RTS signal which triggers a contactor to turn the storage heaters (and immersion heater) on.

If yuo have a smart meter fitted, it would normally be wired so that it continues to operate your contactor (like this) so that your immersion heater and storage heaters are only energised during E7 hours.

If you wish the ablity to override this and heat them using day-rate electricity, this will need a little bit of attention to the wiring by an electrician to add a supplementary timeswitch / smart switch / etc.

(Another option is a five-terminal meter like this where the E7 contactor is internal. This would make manually energising the E7 board somewhat more awkward.)