When a deposit on a flight is non refundable

eskbanker

sheramber said:

Did you read the Terms and Conditions?

https://www.theflightsguru.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/

OP said

adronocus said:
They are called Flight Gurus Ltd.

so I'd have thought it would be this mob instead: https://flightgurus.com/

They're a US outfit but I'm wondering if the fact that they're pursuing OP via the UK courts means that the purchase is considered to be subject to UK jurisdiction - over on the consumer rights forum it's sometimes highlighted that there's a right of cancellation for a distance sale if certain mandatory information isn't provided in advance "on paper or, if the consumer agrees, on another durable medium", under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/10/made

If the contract is deemed to be within scope, then OP ought to be able to make a case that there was insufficient data provided prior to purchase, and therefore they had the right to cancel (for a full refund) within 14 days.

adronocus

Westin said:

Curious to know why you thought an airline ticket purchase would have a refundable deposit.  It is not the norm.

Can honestly say I did not realise that flight tickets did not have a refundable deposit

adronocus

Ganga said:

Rather than getting your deposit back can you not just get the tickets and enjoy your flights.

This company are fraudsters.  There are a huge number of victims who have not only paid their deposit but then gone onto pay the balance of their flights/package holidays in full to then discover, once at the airport, that they are not booked on the flight that they thought they were booked on and then some two years down the line, following a continuous battle with this company, have finally had their money returned, following a court battle.

eskbanker

adronocus said:

Have also got the backing of a number of other victims who have dealt with this company and have come unstuck who have offered a testimonial from them should it go to court.

adronocus said:
This company are fraudsters.  There are a huge number of victims who have not only paid their deposit but then gone onto pay the balance of their flights/package holidays in full to then discover, once at the airport, that they are not booked on the flight that they thought they were booked on and then some two years down the line, following a continuous battle with this company, have finally had their money returned, following a court battle.

The experiences of others may have influenced your decision not to proceed with the company but they're not actually relevant to a court case involving the recovery of monies paid as a deposit, i.e. the matter at hand is whether they're legally obliged to refund you when you cancelled, not whether you were justified in doing so, so it'll make more sense to focus only on that rather than any wider attempt to discredit the company on the basis of negative reviews, etc.

Westin

eskbanker said:

sheramber said:

Did you read the Terms and Conditions?

https://www.theflightsguru.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/

OP said

adronocus said:
They are called Flight Gurus Ltd.

so I'd have thought it would be this mob instead: https://flightgurus.com/

They're a US outfit but I'm wondering if the fact that they're pursuing OP via the UK courts means that the purchase is considered to be subject to UK jurisdiction - over on the consumer rights forum it's sometimes highlighted that there's a right of cancellation for a distance sale if certain mandatory information isn't provided in advance "on paper or, if the consumer agrees, on another durable medium", under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/10/made

If the contract is deemed to be within scope, then OP ought to be able to make a case that there was insufficient data provided prior to purchase, and therefore they had the right to cancel (for a full refund) within 14 days.

Actually I think @shambler is right. 

http://www.theflightsguru.co.uk/

https://www.caa.co.uk/atol-protection/check-an-atol/search-atol-holders/#. ATOL 7381.

U.K. business not a US one.

eskbanker

Westin said:

eskbanker said:

sheramber said:

Did you read the Terms and Conditions?

https://www.theflightsguru.co.uk/terms-and-conditions/

OP said

adronocus said:
They are called Flight Gurus Ltd.

so I'd have thought it would be this mob instead: https://flightgurus.com/

They're a US outfit but I'm wondering if the fact that they're pursuing OP via the UK courts means that the purchase is considered to be subject to UK jurisdiction - over on the consumer rights forum it's sometimes highlighted that there's a right of cancellation for a distance sale if certain mandatory information isn't provided in advance "on paper or, if the consumer agrees, on another durable medium", under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/10/made

If the contract is deemed to be within scope, then OP ought to be able to make a case that there was insufficient data provided prior to purchase, and therefore they had the right to cancel (for a full refund) within 14 days.

Actually I think @shambler is right. 

http://www.theflightsguru.co.uk/

https://www.caa.co.uk/atol-protection/check-an-atol/search-atol-holders/#. ATOL 7381.

U.K. business not a US one.

Quite possibly, I saw that there's a flight shop with the name OP actually mentioned (singular flight, plural gurus) but the other one that's subtly different (plural flights, singular guru) may well be the correct one - OP will obviously be able to confirm who they were dealing with, and clearly should do when accusing them of fraud!

Westin

adronocus said:

Can anybody please offer me some advice and I know there is a strong possibility that there will be some responses advising me that I should have read through before paying any money!!  [A] We strongly believed that we were booking flights with a legitimate company back in August 2023 having found them via kayak platform. [B] At the time of the telephone booking, it was not explained to us, that any deposit paid would be non-refundable.  A deposit was paid with the flights booked.  [C] Within half an hour a rather dubious looking booking form arrived via email.  [D] We were not numbered as passengers 1 to 5 but 1, 2 and 3 and then the further 2 passengers as 1 & 2. [E]  It was only on this email that they stated about a deposit being non refundable and to refer to their terms and conditions.  [F] Following receipt of the dubious looking booking form we decided to do some delving and then discovered that this particular company unfortunately had an exceptionally high number of terrible reviews with a number of customers also currently taking them to court!  Believe you me we felt really silly for falling into the trap but as we said because we found them via kayak we thought that we were ok.

[G] We contacted the company the next day requesting a refund which obviously was refused.  We also contacted the flight company directly who informed us that no flights had been ticketed but there was a booking in our name but the booking had not been booked with the company who we thought we were dealing with, but a third party.  As this point we contacted our bank and requested a chargeback for obvious reasons.  We received our money back from our bank and thought nothing more about it.  A few days ago we have received a HM Courts and Tribunals (money claims online) letter notifying us that the booking agent are taking us to court.

We have obviously completed the paperwork and have heard that the other party are in agreement to participate in mediation to avoid  any court hearing.

Our defence is that it was not made clear to us at the time of the booking, that any deposit paid would be non-refundable.  Also it was not made clear to us at the time of the booking, that it would a third party booking the flights therefore surely resulting in our contract being with the third party.  Additionally, a non-refundable deposit can only be deemed fair meaning that the flight company can only and are only entitled to keep an amount sufficient to cover their actual losses - flights were booked back in August 2023 with departure date in January 2024.

Have also got the backing of a number of other victims who have dealt with this company and have come unstuck who have offered a testimonial from them should it go to court.

Any advice would be most welcome.

A. You did book with a legitimate company, so this cannot be part of your claim.  The business is registered at Companies House.  They also hold an ATOL with the CAA - not that the latter would be necessarily needed.  

B. They will likely argue that their trading terms are on their website and that you should have read them.  Despite the link from Kayak you would have landed on their website and selected your chosen flights from their site.  I think your only chance will be a counter that the sales agent ‘should’ (in your opinion) have highlighted the deposit being non-refundable. They may however of said something along the lines of this booking falls within their standard terms & conditions etc. 

C. Actually good practice that they sent a booking form. A way of ensuring your booking order is what you want and importantly that your names are spelt correctly. Good practice to avoid issues with names on tickets later on.  Also good practice that they again highlight their terms or business. 

D. This actually might be how they managed to secure a cheaper overall price for you.  Splitting the reservation at the initial stage might mean they could pick up 3x seats at one lower price (plus 2x slightly higher), rather than 5x in a higher fare class.  Later on the two reservations could be linked.  This action would not be considered wrong, but perhaps they could have explained this to you (if you asked).

E. Good practice that it is mentioned here, as well as on their website.

F.  This might be your view but it could be a difficult counter in Court. Sounds like they just sent you a form to confirm your order and check that the information was correct (before ticketing the booking).

G. A flight ticket would not be ‘ticketed’ until FULL payment was received. What the airline told you was normal. The agent to this point doing no wrong.  The booking via another 3rd party is irrelevant.  Many agencies will book via a third party. This for perhaps the fare or perhaps for ticketing purposes. The 3rd party link has no baring on your argument. I wouldn’t use that line in a defence in Court for your actions.


I think this will come down to your belief that a deposit would be refundable if you had a change of heart, and/or that you were, or were not, told about the payment when you spoke to them on the phone.

IMO cannot see a legitimate reason or claim for a chargeback and I suspect this is what  The Flight Guru’s will have put forward in the claim now before the Court.  I would personally take up that offer of mediation to see if a compromise can be worked out.

NoodleDoodleMan

Keep_pedalling said:

A lot of these companies are not UK based so it would help if you told us who they are.

Good question - they are a UK outfit.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/07189407

Question for the OP - do you have confirmed return flight to/from your destination for the event you wish to attend ?

I'm not clear on why you wish to cancel for a refund ?

Is it the aircraft seating arrangement ?

Apologies in advance if I've missed something.

eDicky

adronocus said:

Westin said:

Curious to know why you thought an airline ticket purchase would have a refundable deposit.  It is not the norm.

Can honestly say I did not realise that flight tickets did not have a refundable deposit

A deposit payment, in general, is not refundable, by its very nature of giving security to the recipient that contractual arrangements can proceed with confidence. Travel bookings are certainly no different. What would be the point of taking a deposit that's fully refundable on demand..?

adronocus

Thank you all so much for your very kind and helpful responses on this