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SIP PCN sent to lease company

I have an issue with a SIP PCN.  They have written to my lease car company (dated 14th Dec) but have not issued a notice directly to me.  VW state that SIP will not accept transfer of liability to me but have provided me with a letter to submit to SIP for authorisation if I decide to contest.

The date of the alleged offence is the 9th Dec when I attempted to make a payment for parking and their machine wouldn't accept my £1 coins (10 of them).  The online payment system didn't work (I have screenshots).  So I left the car there after trying for 15mins as I was late for my event.  I was parked there for just under an hour.

Which template would I use for this from the Newbs thread?  I am a little confused as there are various ones for complaints but all associated to an actual retailer.  This one was not part of a retailer.  The land register doesn't bring up any details either for this car park on Buxton Street, Manchester.  

I have put together a letter using a template from a lease car example but not sure if it is good enough to send as a complaint directly to SIP as follows:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I wish to make a formal complaint and challenge this 'PCN' as lessee of the vehicle and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address listed below:

(my address)

I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), Civil Enforcement has no reason to contact Volkswagen Financial Services (UK) Ltd again regarding this PCN.  I enclose a letter from Volkswagen to this effect. 

On the 9th December the vehicle was parked at Buxton Street, Manchester for the period of under an hour.  The parking charge was £5 with no possible means to make a payment due to the lack of functioning facilities.  The single ‘pay by cash’ machine on site failed to accept £1 coins.  The equivalent of £10 in coins were attempted and not even one was taken by the machine.  I attempted to make the payment online, which again failed due to obvious system issues (Exhibit A and B).  The notice online to call the office states phone lines are open 9am-5pm meaning I have no other possible means of making a payment.  Having exhausted all attempts, I submitted an email to the address provided online to request to make my payment.  I have never received a reply to this to date. As the adjacent car park was full, and I was late for my event (7.30PM), due to this issue, I had no time to mess around with other options.  It is your failings of providing drivers with functioning facilities, that this payment was not made.  Furthermore, there was no signage to state the machine was out of order or not able to accept £1 coins.  I also provide a witness statement from someone who was attending the same event (Exhibit D) to corroborate the events. 

I also believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers upon entrance (Exhibit C).  Furthermore, you fail to provide terms and conditions on this signage. 

Further to the above, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.
 

DOCUMENTS included: -

EXHIBIT A: The message from your online system displaying the error in attempting to complete an online transaction to pay the parking charge. 

EXHIBIT B: Further attempts made to pay for my parking online were made with the errors received as per Exhibit B.  This proves there were technical issues with your systems on the 9th December 2023.

EXHIBIT C:  Your signage at the location of Buxton Street, Manchester.  

EXHIBIT D: Witness statement of XXX, who can corroborate my genuine attempts to make payment. 

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified.   

Yours faithfully,



If you could please help with advising on this ASAP so I can send this to SIP as it needs to be posted out.  No email or online option given for a complaint to be filed!  I also found a statement on their website stating along the lines that if you failed to make the payment due to the machine not working, it is up-to you to make the payment via the telephone line or online system.

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Comments

  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 57,993
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    edited 10 January at 2:55PM
    That looks like one of the edna basher hire vehicle letters, which is correct, but make sure you put the correct name of the PPC in your appeal.

    As well as complaining to the landowner and the hirer's MP, you should also warn the lease company that they will remain liable for the charge if they do not pass the hirer/lessee's details to the parking company. You should also instruct them not to pay the charge under any circumstances nor deduct the charge from your account.
    If they are BVRLA members then they should know this because that trade association has told it's members not to pay these charges but to inform the parking company of the hirer's details.

    Don't give them any more information than you need to and don't send anything with the appeal, especially not Exhibit B where you blab about the driver's identity.
    All you need to state is that you are the hirer/lessee, and therefore the keeper as you have already stated, and that the NTK was not PoFA compliant and therefore incapable of holding the hirer liable.

    If you have to post the appeal, then do so from a Post Office counter and obtain the all important free proof of posting. Do not use any signed for method of posting.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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  • troublemaker22
    troublemaker22 Posts: 413
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    @Fruitcake is (as ever) correct on the absolute necessity of excluding any information as to who might have been driving.  

    There is a more fundamental point, however.  You have not received a notice from SIP.  You just have a copy of the notice received by VW.  As VW has authorised you to appeal on their behalf, I recommend that you do just that and then wait to receive a notice to hirer in your own name which you can then appeal.  Even after more than a decade of POFA, I have yet to see a notice to hirer that is actually POFA-compliant, so if this one goes the usual way it should be an easy win.  I suggest something along the following lines for round 1.

    Please note that, although this company is the registered keeper, at the material time the vehicle was hired to [your name] of [your address] under a hire agreement.  This appeal is accompanied by the documents specified in paragraphs 13(2)(b) and (c) of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.  You must therefore cancel the PCN issued to this company. 

    Be sure to attach the documents specified in POFA paragraphs 13(2)(b) and (c) as well as the authority provided by VW.
  • alanjuk
    alanjuk Posts: 374
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    Small point  "I attempted to make the payment online" should read "the driver attempted to make the payment online, 
  • troublemaker22
    troublemaker22 Posts: 413
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    alanjuk said:
    Small point  "I attempted to make the payment online" should read "the driver attempted to make the payment online, 
    That can come later, in the appeal against the expected notice to hirer.  For now, just lodge the paragraph 13 appeal on behalf of VW
  • Affywaffy
    Affywaffy Posts: 29
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    Fruitcake said:
    That looks like one of the edna basher hire vehicle letters, which is correct, but make sure you put the correct name of the PPC in your appeal.

    As well as complaining to the landowner and the hirer's MP, you should also warn the lease company that they will remain liable for the charge if they do not pass the hirer/lessee's details to the parking company. You should also instruct them not to pay the charge under any circumstances nor deduct the charge from your account.
    If they are BVRLA members then they should know this because that trade association has told it's members not to pay these charges but to inform the parking company of the hirer's details.

    Don't give them any more information than you need to and don't send anything with the appeal, especially not Exhibit B where you blab about the driver's identity.
    All you need to state is that you are the hirer/lessee, and therefore the keeper as you have already stated, and that the NTK was not PoFA compliant and therefore incapable of holding the hirer liable.

    If you have to post the appeal, then do so from a Post Office counter and obtain the all important free proof of posting. Do not use any signed for method of posting.
    Just a quick one in this, and thank you for your response, SIP are not part of POPLA but part of IAS. I read a thread somewhere stating to make the complaint and if it is not dropped to ignore all letters and DO NOT appeal. Is this correct? And if so, do I need to notify VW of this?

    also, I don’t know who owns the car park. 
  • Affywaffy
    Affywaffy Posts: 29
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    Affywaffy said:
    Fruitcake said:
    That looks like one of the edna basher hire vehicle letters, which is correct, but make sure you put the correct name of the PPC in your appeal.

    As well as complaining to the landowner and the hirer's MP, you should also warn the lease company that they will remain liable for the charge if they do not pass the hirer/lessee's details to the parking company. You should also instruct them not to pay the charge under any circumstances nor deduct the charge from your account.
    If they are BVRLA members then they should know this because that trade association has told it's members not to pay these charges but to inform the parking company of the hirer's details.

    Don't give them any more information than you need to and don't send anything with the appeal, especially not Exhibit B where you blab about the driver's identity.
    All you need to state is that you are the hirer/lessee, and therefore the keeper as you have already stated, and that the NTK was not PoFA compliant and therefore incapable of holding the hirer liable.

    If you have to post the appeal, then do so from a Post Office counter and obtain the all important free proof of posting. Do not use any signed for method of posting.
    Just a quick one in this, and thank you for your response, SIP are not part of POPLA but part of IAS. I read a thread somewhere stating to make the complaint and if it is not dropped to ignore all letters and DO NOT appeal. Is this correct? And if so, do I need to notify VW of this?

    also, I don’t know who owns the car park. 
    Also, VW have stated in their letter to me the operator will not allow us to transfer liability to you and only provide VW with the option to pay the charge notice.
  • It doesn't matter what SIP has told VW.  Do you want to take advice from the experts on this forum or from liars at SIP?

    It also doesn't matter whether SIP is a member of IPC (IAS) or BPA (POPLA).  IPC, IAS, BPA and POPLA don't make laws.  Parliament makes laws and Parliament made POFA.  If you follow POFA, you should easily defeat this ticket. Just send the following on VW's behalf:

    Please note that, although this company is the registered keeper, at the material time the vehicle was hired to [your name] of [your address] under a hire agreement.  This appeal is accompanied by the documents specified in paragraphs 13(2)(b) and (c) of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.  You must therefore cancel the PCN issued to this company. 

    Be sure to attach the documents specified in POFA paragraphs 13(2)(b) and (c) as well as the authority provided by VW.
  • Affywaffy
    Affywaffy Posts: 29
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    It doesn't matter what SIP has told VW.  Do you want to take advice from the experts on this forum or from liars at SIP?

    It also doesn't matter whether SIP is a member of IPC (IAS) or BPA (POPLA).  IPC, IAS, BPA and POPLA don't make laws.  Parliament makes laws and Parliament made POFA.  If you follow POFA, you should easily defeat this ticket. Just send the following on VW's behalf:

    Please note that, although this company is the registered keeper, at the material time the vehicle was hired to [your name] of [your address] under a hire agreement.  This appeal is accompanied by the documents specified in paragraphs 13(2)(b) and (c) of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.  You must therefore cancel the PCN issued to this company. 

    Be sure to attach the documents specified in POFA paragraphs 13(2)(b) and (c) as well as the authority provided by VW.
    Will do. Thanks for the help 😊.
  • Well done.  No banging on about signs, no photos.  Just that short statement plus the POFA-mandated documents and VW's authorisation.
  • Affywaffy
    Affywaffy Posts: 29
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    Well done.  No banging on about signs, no photos.  Just that short statement plus the POFA-mandated documents and VW's authorisation.
    I have received a Notice to hirer/named driver today. They haven’t acknowledged my letter but have stated about paragraph 14 of PoFA.



    Do I appeal from here now or assume they have not replied to my letter?
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