Should my bank be asking me how I am spending my money when I make large cash withdrawals?

grumbler

Nothing hypothetical. There were cases posted here and in other places, but I don't remember any about a suitcase. Not to mention that no suitcase is needed for, say £20K. A small bag will do.

GeoffTF

Yes the bank are right

grumbler said:

GeoffTF said:

grumbler said:

If you lose money through terrible personal security (leaving pin numbers on post it notes, believing anyone who calls is from your bank, having someone else's face or fingerprints registered in your phone etc) then that's your own problem.  I have little sympathy for such cases, although banks do seem too keen to refund right now. In the end that's going to cost us all

And what about the seller who was paid, but later this money is taken back by the bank?

That is theft. You go to the Police with your evidence that your goods have been taken without payment. If they are insured, you get a crime number and make a claim.

Insured against what? If you mean car or home insurance, good luck!

Car insurers do pay up for theft, and so do home insurers for "all risks" items. In reality, I doubt that the bank would be able to claim that they were simply acting on their client's instruction in reversing the payment. I expect that the money would soon be reinstated in your account once they have seen your crime number, Police statement, photographs etc.

grumbler

I'd be surprised if in any documents the Police call this sort of crime 'theft'.

And if you voluntarily post or hand over any valuable item to a scammer I don't think that any home insurance will cover this.

GeoffTF

Yes the bank are right

grumbler said:

I'd be surprised if in any documents the Police call this sort of crime 'theft'.

And if you voluntarily post or hand over any valuable item to a scammer I don't think that any home insurance will cover this.

It is called "making off without payment" and is a criminal offence under section 3 of the Theft Act 1978:

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/offences/making-off-without-payment

It is effectively the same as paying by cheque and then deliberately cancelling the cheque.

IanManc

GeoffTF said:

grumbler said:

I'd be surprised if in any documents the Police call this sort of crime 'theft'.

And if you voluntarily post or hand over any valuable item to a scammer I don't think that any home insurance will cover this.

It is called "making off without payment" and is a criminal offence under section 3 of the Theft Act 1978:

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/offences/making-off-without-payment

It is effectively the same as paying by cheque and then deliberately cancelling the cheque.

Making off without payment relates to leaving somewhere without paying for goods that are due to be paid for before you leave.

That is not the same thing as money being taken back by a bank, and the offence of making off without payment is of no relevance to that scenario.

GeoffTF

Yes the bank are right

IanManc said:

GeoffTF said:

grumbler said:

I'd be surprised if in any documents the Police call this sort of crime 'theft'.

And if you voluntarily post or hand over any valuable item to a scammer I don't think that any home insurance will cover this.

It is called "making off without payment" and is a criminal offence under section 3 of the Theft Act 1978:

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/offences/making-off-without-payment

It is effectively the same as paying by cheque and then deliberately cancelling the cheque.

Making off without payment relates to leaving somewhere without paying for goods that are due to be paid for before you leave.

That is not the same thing as money being taken back by a bank, and the offence of making off without payment is of no relevance to that scenario.

The buyer made off with the goods having made an electronic payment, but then instructed his bank to reverse that payment. He has taken the goods and deliberately failed to pay for them. As I understand it, that is theft.

Yorkie1

If actual payment is made at the time then it is not MOWP because payment has been made, even if later reversed.

If actual payment is made at the time then I very much doubt that the offence of theft is made out either.

However, fraud is a more likely offence, either at the point of obtaining the goods by falsely representing that the payment would be valid (not reclaimed), or at the point of reclaiming the payment by false representations at that point.

MrFrugalFever

Yes the bank are right

Good luck with your large cash withdrawals. Personally that smacks of tax avoidance/evasion and the bank is well within their rights to ask you about this in case you are being coerced or scammed as the bank know that once they hand over £10k+ they cannot be refunding it back to you in the event it all goes south.

For future reference for some posters the AML regulation requires action to be taken when a payment is being made to a value of 10,000 EURO's or more. Banks are also required to query withdrawals of the same amount, although I suspect each bank will have their own threshold at which point they start querying (say £1,000 and above etc).

KYC and TCF has effectively been refreshed and now falls under 'Consumer Duty' as of last year and this puts further pressure on all FCA regulated businesses to engage with their customers in a more genuine way to fully understand their needs/requirements/intentions and financial goals. 

IanManc

GeoffTF said:

IanManc said:

GeoffTF said:

grumbler said:

I'd be surprised if in any documents the Police call this sort of crime 'theft'.

And if you voluntarily post or hand over any valuable item to a scammer I don't think that any home insurance will cover this.

It is called "making off without payment" and is a criminal offence under section 3 of the Theft Act 1978:

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/offences/making-off-without-payment

It is effectively the same as paying by cheque and then deliberately cancelling the cheque.

Making off without payment relates to leaving somewhere without paying for goods that are due to be paid for before you leave.

That is not the same thing as money being taken back by a bank, and the offence of making off without payment is of no relevance to that scenario.

The buyer made off with the goods having made an electronic payment, but then instructed his bank to reverse that payment. He has taken the goods and deliberately failed to pay for them. As I understand it, that is theft.

It definitely isn't the making off without payment offence that you asserted it was.

GeoffTF

Yes the bank are right

IanManc said:

GeoffTF said:

IanManc said:

GeoffTF said:

grumbler said:

I'd be surprised if in any documents the Police call this sort of crime 'theft'.

And if you voluntarily post or hand over any valuable item to a scammer I don't think that any home insurance will cover this.

It is called "making off without payment" and is a criminal offence under section 3 of the Theft Act 1978:

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/offences/making-off-without-payment

It is effectively the same as paying by cheque and then deliberately cancelling the cheque.

Making off without payment relates to leaving somewhere without paying for goods that are due to be paid for before you leave.

That is not the same thing as money being taken back by a bank, and the offence of making off without payment is of no relevance to that scenario.

The buyer made off with the goods having made an electronic payment, but then instructed his bank to reverse that payment. He has taken the goods and deliberately failed to pay for them. As I understand it, that is theft.

It definitely isn't the making off without payment offence that you asserted it was.

Please give a link.