Advice Needed: Engine gone within 6 months of purchase

Goudy

danipan said:

Goudy said:

There have been plenty for reports that the camshaft adjuster pulley can fail.

Your symptoms sound similar, total engine stop, non start, no compression but cam belt appears fine.

The pulley allows the cam shaft to phase, ie shift the valve opening timings earlier and earlier as the rpms rise.

Without stripping it all down it's hard to tell why the valves are open at the wrong time, but there have been rumours that the bolt holding it on had loosened and backed out. Probably due to oil getting into the bolt threads.

The manufacturer has been pretty coy about the problem which has left some owners in the lurch, facing massive repair bills.
This has usually been because they've wriggled out of the responsibility due to the car being outside of the warranty.

I would say if your warranty is sound due to the car being serviced by the main dealer, including the cam belt change, you shouldn't have much to worry about.

But they will want to be able to charge for the diagnostic work (and repair) if they wriggle out of their responsibility, that's why they are telling you.

Thanks for the explanation.
I'm not very mechanically minded when it comes to cars, so that's very helpful and maybe I bring this up with the dealer. 

Would an improperly fitted cambelt cause a camshaft adjuster pulley failure? 
Since the car had it changed in February.
Also, the RAC technician that came down said instantly, from the “unmistakable noise” when attempting to fire it up, that the cambelt had gone.

Yes, I believe the cam pulley needs to come off to change the cam belt and tensioner.

The cam is locked from the other end of the camshaft with a special tool, another tool goes into the block and locks the crankshaft in place, then the belt, pulleys and tensioner can be stripped off without upsetting the timing.

There's a long bolt through the pulley that holds it on to the end of camshaft and it's this that is suspected of working loose.

I'm not sure why it backs out though.
I've read some reports that oil has contaminated the pulley bolt threads some how from within the engine.
The belt side of this engine should be free from oil, if it's leaking through the threads in the pulley, that's a manufacturing or fitting problem.

Or the torque spec hasn't been followed when refitting.
It should be torqued down to a certain torque setting first then a further 90 degree turn.
If this last 90 degree turn has been missed, then who knows what will happen.
Another fitting problem?


The "unmistakeable noise" is probably the valves and the pistons coming into contact with each other.
On most modern engines, the pistons and open valves share the same space inside the engine, just not at the same time.

These are called interference engines.
Some older engines don't share the same space and are called non interference or safe engines.

The pistons at top dead centre occupy the same space as the open valves, but the valves shouldn't be open at TDC, not unless there's a fault that has put the valves out of phase.

This happens when the belt snaps, but as they are saying it's not actually snapped, there's another issue between the crank and cam timing which is likely to be the pulley.

This means if the valve timings go too far out of phase with the crankshaft and the valves and the pistons have met and caused a lot of expensive damage, like an engine write off.

Because of this the dealer/manufacturer probably won't be ready to take full responsibility, yet.
There's a big bill coming and no one wants to be left holding it when the music stops.

At the moment the dealer is letting to know there's a possible big bill coming, just they aren't totally sure who is paying it yet.

From your point of view the cam and cam belt was fine, in fact the belt was replaced on time and by Audi.
There's nothing more you could have done to prevent this issue and there's nothing you could have done to cause it.
It must have had the problem when you bought it.

Stateofart

It is normal to authorise work prior to a warranty claim, so the garage are not on the hook for the work should the warranty not pay.  It is a bit of a worrysome time but it's quite normal.  I've made loads of warranty claims and each time there is a bit of time before you know if it's covered. 

danipan

Goudy said:

danipan said:

Goudy said:

There have been plenty for reports that the camshaft adjuster pulley can fail.

Your symptoms sound similar, total engine stop, non start, no compression but cam belt appears fine.

The pulley allows the cam shaft to phase, ie shift the valve opening timings earlier and earlier as the rpms rise.

Without stripping it all down it's hard to tell why the valves are open at the wrong time, but there have been rumours that the bolt holding it on had loosened and backed out. Probably due to oil getting into the bolt threads.

The manufacturer has been pretty coy about the problem which has left some owners in the lurch, facing massive repair bills.
This has usually been because they've wriggled out of the responsibility due to the car being outside of the warranty.

I would say if your warranty is sound due to the car being serviced by the main dealer, including the cam belt change, you shouldn't have much to worry about.

But they will want to be able to charge for the diagnostic work (and repair) if they wriggle out of their responsibility, that's why they are telling you.

Thanks for the explanation.
I'm not very mechanically minded when it comes to cars, so that's very helpful and maybe I bring this up with the dealer. 

Would an improperly fitted cambelt cause a camshaft adjuster pulley failure? 
Since the car had it changed in February.
Also, the RAC technician that came down said instantly, from the “unmistakable noise” when attempting to fire it up, that the cambelt had gone.

Yes, I believe the cam pulley needs to come off to change the cam belt and tensioner.

The cam is locked from the other end of the camshaft with a special tool, another tool goes into the block and locks the crankshaft in place, then the belt, pulleys and tensioner can be stripped off without upsetting the timing.

There's a long bolt through the pulley that holds it on to the end of camshaft and it's this that is suspected of working loose.

I'm not sure why it backs out though.
I've read some reports that oil has contaminated the pulley bolt threads some how from within the engine.
The belt side of this engine should be free from oil, if it's leaking through the threads in the pulley, that's a manufacturing or fitting problem.

Or the torque spec hasn't been followed when refitting.
It should be torqued down to a certain torque setting first then a further 90 degree turn.
If this last 90 degree turn has been missed, then who knows what will happen.
Another fitting problem?


The "unmistakeable noise" is probably the valves and the pistons coming into contact with each other.
On most modern engines, the pistons and open valves share the same space inside the engine, just not at the same time.

These are called interference engines.
Some older engines don't share the same space and are called non interference or safe engines.

The pistons at top dead centre occupy the same space as the open valves, but the valves shouldn't be open at TDC, not unless there's a fault that has put the valves out of phase.

This happens when the belt snaps, but as they are saying it's not actually snapped, there's another issue between the crank and cam timing which is likely to be the pulley.

This means if the valve timings go too far out of phase with the crankshaft and the valves and the pistons have met and caused a lot of expensive damage, like an engine write off.

Because of this the dealer/manufacturer probably won't be ready to take full responsibility, yet.
There's a big bill coming and no one wants to be left holding it when the music stops.

At the moment the dealer is letting to know there's a possible big bill coming, just they aren't totally sure who is paying it yet.

From your point of view the cam and cam belt was fine, in fact the belt was replaced on time and by Audi.
There's nothing more you could have done to prevent this issue and there's nothing you could have done to cause it.
It must have had the problem when you bought it.

I asked the Service Advisor to send me more details of what tests were done on the car and this was his reply in an email:

"These are the technician's notes regarding your vehicle. 

Reference car undriveable - attempted to start vehicle and found vehicle not starting - checked cambelt visually for snapped cambelt, belt in one piece. removed spark plugs and coil packs and carried out compression test - found cylinders 1,2 and 4 to have no compression. Checked timing for cambelt and found engine out of time. May have caused internal damage to valves and pistons - requires cylinder head removed to access damage, may need a new engine if there is metal to metal contact

Quoted price £1,200. 5 hours labour to strip the vehicle."

danipan

Stateofart said:

It is normal to authorise work prior to a warranty claim, so the garage are not on the hook for the work should the warranty not pay.  It is a bit of a worrysome time but it's quite normal.  I've made loads of warranty claims and each time there is a bit of time before you know if it's covered. 

Yes I do understand their obligation to warn the customer. But I know the car wasn't mis-used or neglected on my part, so I'm just caught in two minds whether to go the warranty route (probably quicker) or the CRA route (which is likely to be a long drawn out process but with more protection)

se2020

I think one issue would be that you have not taken it back to the supplying dealer.

The warranty is valid accross the branches but to use the protection of cra the original dealer needs to be given the chance to fix it.
Unless the original dealer referred you somewhere else?

Stateofart

ALWAYS go back to the supplier.  I've had huge problems in the past getting warranty work done by the same franchise but not the same garage.  Many people say it doesn't matter, but in all honesty it saves problems in the future.

danipan

se2020 said:

I think one issue would be that you have not taken it back to the supplying dealer.

The warranty is valid accross the branches but to use the protection of cra the original dealer needs to be given the chance to fix it.
Unless the original dealer referred you somewhere else?

When the car broke down I wanted to get it towed to the supplying dealer but they informed that their workshop was currently under renovations and asked me to book it in with another dealer under the same franchise and ownership group, Marshall Motor Group.

m0bov

Your claiming under CRA, your claim is against the supplying dealer, so they need to fix. You are not pre authorizing it as its not wear and tear. How did you pay for it? Make sure you tell them its not under the warranty so you are not bound by its T and C.

danipan

m0bov said:

Your claiming under CRA, your claim is against the supplying dealer, so they need to fix. You are not pre authorizing it as its not wear and tear. How did you pay for it? Make sure you tell them its not under the warranty so you are not bound by its T and C.

Unfortunately paid cash via bank transfer. 

I am planning to drop by to the dealer tomorrow to speak with the Head of Business to inform him of my decision to claim under the CRA and their obligation to repair it. 

I have the letter of complaint typed up. Who should I address the letter to?
and would it be better to send it? since I could get proof of delivery, as opposed to giving it in person.


and if I were to go down the route of CRA, any advice what to do with my vehicle (currently not driveable).
Would I need to get it towed to the supplying dealer?

m0bov

I would get the car transported to the dealer, take your letter to him and also post a copy with a certificate, don't do registered. 

Address it to the company, make sure it takes what you are expecting them to do (repair, refund minus usage etc..) Also you need a loan car or you will be claiming compensation to cover this.

I would'nt even get into a conversation if its got this bad, the sight of the car arriving on a low loader and you hopping out with a letter might get them into action, if you can do it on a a saturday in the showroom, even better.

When my Skoda vRS throw its timing chain, it was over three years but I had a Skoda extended warranty. They tried to claim I drove it when I should;nt of, tried to get out of the claim by saying its a "inherent fault". I showed this letter to Skoda themselves and said in that case its a claim under CRA as I purchased it new. They then replaced the whole engine for free. Odd as when they called me they would'nt give me there name, just told me to book it into a dealer.

The letter was gold dust for me.