The supplier do not want to fix intermittent smart meter readings. How to convince them to fix it?

dragonfruit

Is there any law that says that the gas supplier should fix the problem (intermittent gas smart meter readings) resulting from the excessive distance of gas smart meter from the comms hub and electricity meter?

An engineer sent by the gas and electricity supplier to replace a non-functioning gas smart meter said that the old gas meter stopped working and displaying anything, because its battery was prematurely discharged, because when the distance is too large between the gas meter and the electric meter for effective communication between them, then the gas meter tries all the time to contact the electric meter (or the comms hub) and that discharges the battery very quickly (he said that normally the battery should last about 15 years). 

The engineer said that changing the gas meter alone cannot resolve the problem, because the gas meter is too far away from the comms hub and the electric meter, and because of that it cannot communicate with those devices correctly. To remedy this situation the engineer said that his next visit should be booked by the customer with the supplier (he explicitly said that he cannot book it, the customer has to do it), so that he could change the old electric meter and the old comms hub to Dual Band Comms Hub and Dual Band Electric Meter, because dual band comms hubs can work on two different frequencies and one of those frequencies is suitable to cover the longer distance between the gas meter and the electric meter, thus solving the problem of not effective communication between those devices due to too large distance between them.

He also said that his next visit has to be booked, because this is the only supplier that has the rules that do not allow him to do the exchange of the electric meter and the comms hub during his visit when he was exchanging the gas meter. He said that with any other supplier he would be able to do it in one day, in one visit.

The request to the supplier to book the engineer's next visit has been not replied for months despite the reminders sent. Eventually the supplier confirmed that they can see that there is a problem with the gas smart meter, as it is in and out of communication with them. According to them it does show as communicating with them but they do also receive estimates as well whereas they should just be getting smart meter reads.

Yet, because occasionally they do get the smart reads (no wonder, since the engineer installed a new gas meter with a new battery) they do not want to do anything with this.

So they ignored the engineers requirement to change the hub and electricity meter to dual band ones. The engineer did not propose this remedy as optional, he said this has to be done to complete the job. But the supplier decided to not complete the job. 

So they apparently expect a different outcome from the same circumstances that were before. But the outcome cannot be different, because circumstances are the same, the laws of physics are the same, the situation is the same, the battery in the gas meter will again be depleted prematurely, because it still works at the same frequency that was unsuitable for the large distance between the gas meter and the electric meter.

Is there any way to convince the supplier (preferably by quoting some rules or regulations) that they should listen to the engineer's advice and change the comms hub and electric meter to dual band ones to solve once and for all that long distance communication problem of the gas meter with the comms hub?

Also, they charged for months for gas only based on the estimates and not the actual readings. The readings were unavailable even manually, because the battery was so depleted that the gas meter display was blank.

Thus, it was not possible to get those readings in any way. But this is their fault that they did not fix this issue so long before (and are doing the same mistake again now). 

So shouldn't they in such circumstances cancel the estimated gas usage or at least offer a reduced price for that period, as they likely overcharged their customer (they estimated based on winter usage, while it was spring and summer, when the actual usage was much lower)?

Many thanks.

Brie

If you were on a single fixed rate when readings were not possible then you won't have been disadvantaged financially by using estimates once the meter was working properly again. 

If there is also a concern was that you weren't able to adequately monitor your use and therefore change your direct debit appropriately that may not be considered such a big issue as your DD would be caught up to the correct amount once the meter could be read.  

If however you were on a variable rate and it changed through this period it's highly possible that you are out of pocket.  That could be the basis of a complaint you could make to them to get them to resolve the issue and to get some compensation.  

dragonfruit

Brie said:

If you were on a single fixed rate when readings were not possible then you won't have been disadvantaged financially by using estimates once the meter was working properly again. 

If there is also a concern was that you weren't able to adequately monitor your use and therefore change your direct debit appropriately that may not be considered such a big issue as your DD would be caught up to the correct amount once the meter could be read.  

If however you were on a variable rate and it changed through this period it's highly possible that you are out of pocket.  That could be the basis of a complaint you could make to them to get them to resolve the issue and to get some compensation.  

It is a standard variable rate plan. The new meter installed started readings from 0. There was no way to determine what was the usage when the old meter was still installed, as the display was blank and it did not send any signals due to the discharged battery.

Brie

I thought that if they couldn't prove a reading they couldn't charge you for some imaginary amount of energy.  Others may know better.

QrizB

dragonfruit said:

Is there any law that says that the gas supplier should fix the problem (intermittent gas smart meter readings) resulting from the excessive distance of gas smart meter from the comms hub and electricity meter?

The short answer is no, there isn't.

dragonfruit said:

An engineer sent by the gas and electricity supplier to replace a non-functioning gas smart meter said that the old gas meter stopped working and displaying anything, because its battery was prematurely discharged, because when the distance is too large between the gas meter and the electric meter for effective communication between them, then the gas meter tries all the time to contact the electric meter (or the comms hub) and that discharges the battery very quickly (he said that normally the battery should last about 15 years).

Yes, this is a fairly common occurrence.

dragonfruit said:

So they ignored the engineers requirement to change the hub and electricity meter to dual band ones. The engineer did not propose this remedy as optional, he said this has to be done to complete the job. But the supplier decided to not complete the job. 

There is no compulsion on suppliers to replace comms hubs. Not yet, at least. The focus is on rolling out smart meters to the ~40% of customers who don't yet have them.

Once the rollout is complete, I would expect issues like yours to be the next Ofgem target.

dragonfruit said:

So they apparently expect a different outcome from the same circumstances that were before.

I don't imagine they expect any change. They expect that, in a year or two, you'll be asking for another gas meter replacement.

dragonfruit said:

Also, they charged for months for gas only based on the estimates and not the actual readings.

Do you think the estimates are wrong? If so, have you challenged the estimates with your gas supplier? To what result?

dragonfruit said:

So shouldn't they in such circumstances cancel the estimated gas usage or at least offer a reduced price for that period ...

No.

dragonfruit said:

... as they likely overcharged their customer

Do you think the estimates are wrong? If so, have you challenged the estimates with your gas supplier? To what result?

JSHarris

This comms problem with gas meters seems commonplace, seems to me that the people designing the units were pretty clueless when it came to understanding the real requirement.  It doesn't take much to block the signal, and as you say, the battery powered gas meter side just keeps trying until the battery goes flat.  I get the impression that the system designers falsely assumed that every installation would have the gas meter box right next to the electricity meter box, as is commonplace with new builds.  They failed to consider all the millions of homes where the two meters are spaced well apart. 

My in-laws had this same problem, their gas meter was on the outside wall of the house, their electricity meter was in the basement.  There was no way that the very low power gas meter comms unit was ever going to communicate with the electricity meter.  Worse still was the fact that there was no way the electricity meter was ever going to connect to DCC, as being deep in a basement there was not a sniff of a signal.

What's really irritating is that none of this is rocket science, or dealing with the unknown.  A lot of the UK housing stock is old, and until about 40 years ago electricity meters were almost always buried deep in the interior of the house (the cupboard under the stairs was a favourite location).  Expecting meters deep inside a building to be able to communicate at close to microwave frequencies was always going to be a challenge, hence the reason there are a lot of smart meters that aren't talking to DCC, despite them not having any intrinsic faults.  A better option by far would have been for there to be a cable connection option, especially for gas meters.  It would mean a bit more installation work, but would remove the battery problem and the difficulty with communicating through walls and floors.  It was interesting reading the design statement for the (relatively new) mandatory smart EV charge points.  The comms problem was recognised right from the start, so they should (and one company doesn't follow this) have the provision for either a WiFi or wired Ethernet connection.  The wired Ethernet connection, in particular, is a much more reliable way of connecting to a central server.

QrizB

JSHarris said:

This comms problem with gas meters seems commonplace, seems to me that the people designing the units were pretty clueless when it came to understanding the real requirement.

On the contrary, I'm certain the people designing the meters knew exactly what the requirements were and the meters meet the requirements in all respects.

The people writing the requirements, on the other hand, might have assumed too much. Or may have been constrained by their various stakeholders.

JSHarris

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

This comms problem with gas meters seems commonplace, seems to me that the people designing the units were pretty clueless when it came to understanding the real requirement.

On the contrary, I'm certain the people designing the meters knew exactly what the requirements were and the meters meet the requirements in all respects.

The people writing the requirements, on the other hand, might have assumed too much. Or may have been constrained by their various stakeholders.

OK, perhaps splitting hairs, but I had assumed that the designers had some common sense, at least enough to do a sanity check on the requirements they were working too.  Heaven help us if all designers behave like rigidly programmed state machines and are unable to look outside the confines of their tightly programmed behaviour.

debitcardmayhem

Perhaps the answer to the gas meter power problem is to install a small wind turbine in the pipe which generates the power required for the comms. I am just off to patent this now🤔
Just realised I should do one for smart water meters too

Phones4Chris

The answer is to raise a formal complaint and dispute the estimated readings as being inaccurate. If they are refusing to follow the engineers recommendations then tell them you want a deadlock letter so that you can go to the ombudsman. If they refuse, tell them you'll wait the 8 weeks and then go to the ombudsman.

MWT

Brie said:

I thought that if they couldn't prove a reading they couldn't charge you for some imaginary amount of energy.  Others may know better.

They are allowed to use an estimate, but the customer is also allowed to challenge the basis of the estimate and counter with their own basis.

If agreement cannot be reached then it goes to the Ombudsman.

... but as per QrizB above, you do have to start the process by complaining about the estimate...