SiP parking fine Manchester

Harambe123

Hi all,
Received a notice to keeper today from a local car park for "insufficient fee paid". Unfortunately it was paid for late on the day, but also misclicked and hit 12 hours rather than 24 hours - have the receipt for this. Difference in cost was £1, now hit with a £100 fine (£60 reduced). 

Have read newbies post. just wondering if POFA applies here to transfer liability to keeper given no actual mention of protection of freedoms act. Just says "if, after the period of 28 days...we have the right to recover from you". Should it specifically mention POFA?

Also no photo of sign, is this not required under POFA for transferring liability?

Thanks in advance.

Fruitcake

The NTK looks PoFA compliant on dates and wording to me. It doesn't have to mention the PoFA, but must contain the warnings/wording within the PoFA.

Photos of signs are not required on the NTK.

Appeal as per the NEWBIES, and get photos of the site and signage in readiness to fight this further.

Coupon-mad

Should it specifically mention POFA?
Also no photo of sign, is this not required under POFA for transferring liability?

No and no.

IPC Firms are best ignored these days.

DO NOT PAY PCNs FROM IPC AOS FIRMS.

Related - but not about this PPC:

Interesting that it is in the public domain that this new company was oddly registered this Summer, by a certain person...wonder why?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/14994806/officers

I wonder. Nice try. Thwarted I hope...

I think I might know what the plan was.  This has been discussed off forum.  The IPC are meant to be completely separate from any parking appeals service.  

Harambe123

Thanks for the advice. If the PPC pursues me in court as keeper, is the maximum they can claim £100 (POFA mentions this) or can they add on their court fees/administration costs/etc?

Umkomaas

The PCN is just 5 days old and you're concerning yourself about court costs?  Anyway .....

if you don't win this on complaint/appeal it will likely go to (harmless) debt collectors and they'll add a spurious £70 collection/admin charge. Then ...

PCN - £100
DCA Charge - £70 (which almost every judge kicks out)
Claim filing fee - £35 (legit)
Legal/solicitor costs - £50 capped (legit)
Hearing fee - £27 (legit)

But you're a long way away from this, and by the time it gets there, the new Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019 regulations will likely be in place and private parking court claims might not be so easy to issue. Let's see. 

Harambe123

Haha I know it might seem like I'm catastrophising but I'm just weighing up worst case scenario. I've been taken to court over these before and recall all those costs being included but thought legislation may have changed in that time. Thanks for the help.

I don't suppose it would be worthwhile appealing as driver as a keying error? The duration paid for was 12 hours rather than 24 hours mistakenly. Even if they reject, I heard that it may come into regulation in near future that keying errors can't be penalised so might help if it does get to court?

Umkomaas

Harambe123 said:

Haha I know it might seem like I'm catastrophising but I'm just weighing up worst case scenario. I've been taken to court over these before and recall all those costs being included but thought legislation may have changed in that time. Thanks for the help.

I don't suppose it would be worthwhile appealing as driver as a keying error? The duration paid for was 12 hours rather than 24 hours mistakenly. Even if they reject, I heard that it may come into regulation in near future that keying errors can't be penalised so might help if it does get to court?

1. Only complain/appeal as 'registered keeper', keep 'the driver' well clear. 

2. You can try 'keying error', but it seems to me that the option related to incorrect/incomplete VRM entry. Even if they agree, it won't be a PCN cancellation, but it will peg it back to £20. 

Fruitcake

Umkomaas said:

Harambe123 said:

Haha I know it might seem like I'm catastrophising but I'm just weighing up worst case scenario. I've been taken to court over these before and recall all those costs being included but thought legislation may have changed in that time. Thanks for the help.

I don't suppose it would be worthwhile appealing as driver as a keying error? The duration paid for was 12 hours rather than 24 hours mistakenly. Even if they reject, I heard that it may come into regulation in near future that keying errors can't be penalised so might help if it does get to court?

1. Only complain/appeal as 'registered keeper', keep 'the driver' well clear. 

2. You can try 'keying error', but it seems to me that the option related to incorrect/incomplete VRM entry. Even if they agree, it won't be a PCN cancellation, but it will peg it back to £20. 

I don't think that applies to the IPC CoP.

Coupon-mad

No harm in appealing it as a keying error. Might look better later if they ever try a claim. 

Umkomaas

Fruitcake said:

Umkomaas said:

Harambe123 said:

Haha I know it might seem like I'm catastrophising but I'm just weighing up worst case scenario. I've been taken to court over these before and recall all those costs being included but thought legislation may have changed in that time. Thanks for the help.

I don't suppose it would be worthwhile appealing as driver as a keying error? The duration paid for was 12 hours rather than 24 hours mistakenly. Even if they reject, I heard that it may come into regulation in near future that keying errors can't be penalised so might help if it does get to court?

1. Only complain/appeal as 'registered keeper', keep 'the driver' well clear. 

2. You can try 'keying error', but it seems to me that the option related to incorrect/incomplete VRM entry. Even if they agree, it won't be a PCN cancellation, but it will peg it back to £20. 

I don't think that applies to the IPC CoP.

Of course.  The sooner we have this stuff properly standardised and regulated the better. I've struck out the reference in my prior post. Thanks @Fruitcake. 👍

Harambe123

Hi all, thanks for the help once again. I have written the following appeal to the PPC. Any tips? Does it need a complete rewrite before I send?

Dear Sir/Madam,

Regarding Parking Charge Notice: XXXXXXXXXXX

I am writing to appeal this charge, which was issued on the basis of an “insufficient fee paid”. I note from the letter received that you are pursuing me as Keeper of the Vehicle.

Contrary to Paragraph 9(2)(c) of POFA 2012, the Notice To Keeper (NTK) does not 'describe the parking charges due from the driver' as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable.

The breach was (apparently) lack of sufficient parking payment made for the vehicle to cover the full duration of the visit, however the NTK does not tell me the relevant facts. It does not state what the tariff paid was, nor the remaining sum due, and thus it fails on the requirement to describe the facts and circumstances. This cannot be the £85 penalty nor the discount, because the Act stipulates this must relate to parking charges due 'as at the end of that period' (of parking).

With that said, I have obtained evidence suggesting that a payment of £3 was made on the day. Assuming the alleged parking period described in the NTK is correct, the amount owed would have been £4, suggesting an underpayment of £1 at most. The ticket was paid via the PayByPhone app and the Driver was under the impression that the period was paid for in full. The underpayment arose due to a keying error, which resulted in the app automatically assigning a lower time period and corresponding fare.

Although there is insufficient information in this notice, without prejudice and purely as a means to achieve prompt resolution rather than as an admission of liability, I propose a payment of £1 with an additional £20 to cover your administration costs.

I hope that you find this offer reasonable and are prepared to accept. I look forward to hearing from you promptly with your decision.

Yours sincerely

Harambe