Gov Access to Bank Accounts for those in receipt of SP

zagfles

flaneurs_lobster said:

Silvertabby said:

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

Aimed at fraud prevention?  Sadly, it happens.  The LGPS, for one, can quote umpteen cases of: Granny's/Granddad's pension is paid into a joint account with another family member, because it's "easier" to pay their bills/do their shopping for them.  Then Granny/Granddad dies, and the family member "forgets" to tell the LGPS.

Maybe also where someone lives abroad and claims the state pension. Or someone with an additional income they're not paying tax on

Just for the conspiracy theorists, just think about the timing of all this. There's an election next year. The Tories are likely to lose. Why would they, at this stage in the parliament, introduce nefarious powers which they intend to use for their top secret aim of means testing the state pension, which they have no chance whatsoever of implementing before the election, and in all likelyhood will just hand those powers over to Labour before being able to use them for their evil intent?

If they were doing this having just won an election, it may make sense. But just before an election they look like losing? Really? 

OTOH, a tweet from a Labour MP, in the run up to an election, implying the Tories are planning to means test the state pension? What could possibly be the motivation behind that

Just before the 1997 election, which Tony Blair won with a landslide, a Labour back bencher/supporter put out a rumour that the Tories intended to abolish the State pension.

Many existing pensioners, with no other income but the State pension, panicked at the idea of their only source of income being whipped away and voted Labour.

Excellent. I hope the same backbencher/supporter is still able to exercise such influence again.

I could start the ball rolling here by making up a bunch of stuff about the dreadful things the Tories are going to do if re-elected but they seem to be making a pretty good fist of that themselves.

The usual is stuff like "dismantling the NHS" or welfare state. Never mind that spending on both have nearly always  increased in real terms during Tory govts...

zagfles

Silvertabby said:

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

Aimed at fraud prevention?  Sadly, it happens.  The LGPS, for one, can quote umpteen cases of: Granny's/Granddad's pension is paid into a joint account with another family member, because it's "easier" to pay their bills/do their shopping for them.  Then Granny/Granddad dies, and the family member "forgets" to tell the LGPS.

Maybe also where someone lives abroad and claims the state pension. Or someone with an additional income they're not paying tax on

Just for the conspiracy theorists, just think about the timing of all this. There's an election next year. The Tories are likely to lose. Why would they, at this stage in the parliament, introduce nefarious powers which they intend to use for their top secret aim of means testing the state pension, which they have no chance whatsoever of implementing before the election, and in all likelyhood will just hand those powers over to Labour before being able to use them for their evil intent?

If they were doing this having just won an election, it may make sense. But just before an election they look like losing? Really? 

OTOH, a tweet from a Labour MP, in the run up to an election, implying the Tories are planning to means test the state pension? What could possibly be the motivation behind that

Just before the 1997 election, which Tony Blair won with a landslide, a Labour back bencher/supporter put out a rumour that the Tories intended to abolish the State pension.

Many existing pensioners, with no other income but the State pension, panicked at the idea of their only source of income being whipped away and voted Labour.

Tried and tested. And in these days with social media echo chambers repeating the rumour everywhere it's far more effective now than then.

Silvertabby

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

Aimed at fraud prevention?  Sadly, it happens.  The LGPS, for one, can quote umpteen cases of: Granny's/Granddad's pension is paid into a joint account with another family member, because it's "easier" to pay their bills/do their shopping for them.  Then Granny/Granddad dies, and the family member "forgets" to tell the LGPS.

Maybe also where someone lives abroad and claims the state pension. Or someone with an additional income they're not paying tax on

Just for the conspiracy theorists, just think about the timing of all this. There's an election next year. The Tories are likely to lose. Why would they, at this stage in the parliament, introduce nefarious powers which they intend to use for their top secret aim of means testing the state pension, which they have no chance whatsoever of implementing before the election, and in all likelyhood will just hand those powers over to Labour before being able to use them for their evil intent?

If they were doing this having just won an election, it may make sense. But just before an election they look like losing? Really? 

OTOH, a tweet from a Labour MP, in the run up to an election, implying the Tories are planning to means test the state pension? What could possibly be the motivation behind that

Just before the 1997 election, which Tony Blair won with a landslide, a Labour back bencher/supporter put out a rumour that the Tories intended to abolish the State pension.

Many existing pensioners, with no other income but the State pension, panicked at the idea of their only source of income being whipped away and voted Labour.

Tried and tested. And in these days with social media echo chambers repeating the rumour everywhere it's far more effective now than then.

Mind you, there's another rumour/plan already doing the rounds that is causing several oldies to utter some very rude words.  That is the proposal by a Labour back bencher to utilise all those lovely spare bedrooms, currently being hogged by greedy pensioners living alone in family sized houses, by billetting refugees etc in them.  Note this proposal only seems to apply to privately owned properties, and not the 3/4 bedroom council houses still occupied by granny long after her family had flown the nest.

SVaz

It would cost more than it would save to means test the SP.   

Look how much MTD is costing, they’ve had to push it back yet again. 

stripling

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

Aimed at fraud prevention?  Sadly, it happens.  The LGPS, for one, can quote umpteen cases of: Granny's/Granddad's pension is paid into a joint account with another family member, because it's "easier" to pay their bills/do their shopping for them.  Then Granny/Granddad dies, and the family member "forgets" to tell the LGPS.

Maybe also where someone lives abroad and claims the state pension. Or someone with an additional income they're not paying tax on

Just for the conspiracy theorists, just think about the timing of all this. There's an election next year. The Tories are likely to lose. Why would they, at this stage in the parliament, introduce nefarious powers which they intend to use for their top secret aim of means testing the state pension, which they have no chance whatsoever of implementing before the election, and in all likelyhood will just hand those powers over to Labour before being able to use them for their evil intent?

If they were doing this having just won an election, it may make sense. But just before an election they look like losing? Really? 

OTOH, a tweet from a Labour MP, in the run up to an election, implying the Tories are planning to means test the state pension? What could possibly be the motivation behind that

This.... using the label/insult  "conspiracy theory" to avoid actual evidence or engagement. Please don't - this is an interesting thread, let's not degrade it, I want to be able to update it further on. 

You need to actually read the thread then you would have noticed it wasn't a 'tweet by a Labour MP' it was a video clip of a House of Commons question. It was flagged up by Martin Lewis, questioned by Tories including David Davies who all voted against the amendment. An amendment rushed in at the last minute thus impossible to scrutinise, very poorly worded, with terms undefined.  

For those who find it difficult to read: it was not party political - opposition was cross party - and neither is this thread. 

State pensions claimed 'abroad' come under a different payment system btw.

People pay tax on pensions too and there are already measures in place to investigate the bank accounts of those suspected of fraud. Why this amendment is a huge red flag is because it removes the 'suspected of' aspect and opens up ALL bank accounts to monitoring.

Having already mentioned the algorithm problem I'm not going to repeat myself. 

But I'm dealing with facts and evidence, it's my job, if you want to really understand why, apart from the extreme authoritarianism, this amendment is potentially a risk for the future of the state pension, I can give you a reading list.
And no, politicians don't announce these things which would obviously be unpopular, they make them a 'fait accompli'. 

zagfles

stripling said:

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

Aimed at fraud prevention?  Sadly, it happens.  The LGPS, for one, can quote umpteen cases of: Granny's/Granddad's pension is paid into a joint account with another family member, because it's "easier" to pay their bills/do their shopping for them.  Then Granny/Granddad dies, and the family member "forgets" to tell the LGPS.

Maybe also where someone lives abroad and claims the state pension. Or someone with an additional income they're not paying tax on

Just for the conspiracy theorists, just think about the timing of all this. There's an election next year. The Tories are likely to lose. Why would they, at this stage in the parliament, introduce nefarious powers which they intend to use for their top secret aim of means testing the state pension, which they have no chance whatsoever of implementing before the election, and in all likelyhood will just hand those powers over to Labour before being able to use them for their evil intent?

If they were doing this having just won an election, it may make sense. But just before an election they look like losing? Really? 

OTOH, a tweet from a Labour MP, in the run up to an election, implying the Tories are planning to means test the state pension? What could possibly be the motivation behind that

This.... using the label/insult  "conspiracy theory" to avoid actual evidence or engagement. Please don't - this is an interesting thread, let's not degrade it, I want to be able to update it further on. 

You need to actually read the thread then you would have noticed it wasn't a 'tweet by a Labour MP' it was a video clip of a House of Commons question.

The OP was a tweet from a Labour MP! The issue isn't the amendment itself. It's the implication that it's preparation for means testing the state pension. As implied in the tweet, which no doubt was "retweeted" in the echo chamber that is tw*tter.

It was flagged up by Martin Lewis, questioned by Tories including David Davies who all voted against the amendment. An amendment rushed in at the last minute thus impossible to scrutinise, very poorly worded, with terms undefined.  

For those who find it difficult to read: it was not party political - opposition was cross party - and neither is this thread.

Quite possibly. I'm not making any argument for or against this amendment, just the implication it's intended to be used to means test the state pension. The fact that Tories like DD oppose it no surprise.

But I'm dealing with facts and evidence, it's my job, if you want to really understand why, apart from the extreme authoritarianism, this amendment is potentially a risk for the future of the state pension, I can give you a reading list.

Certainly. Give me some "facts and evidence" that there is a serious intention to means test the state pension. Rather than pure speculation that some increase in powers of the state to monitor bank accounts is preparation for that. For instance "No, it's not a long stretch to imagine it would enable means-testing - that has long been an aim of certain sections of the political right, they just wouldn't dare say it out loud in one go." 

Zero facts and evidence in that statement. Just speculation. So here's mine. The Tories have been in power for 13 years. They've had loads of excuses to means test the state pension. The financial crisis and subsequent "austerity". The benefits cuts promised in the 2015 manifesto. COVID. They didn't do it. A lot of other benefits were cut, but the state pension remained protected. Even enhanced by the triple lock.

But suddenly now, a few months away from an election they look like they'll lose, they decide to prepare to the ground for means testing the state pension, something they could never hope to achieve before the election. Believe that if you want. Believe that they're preparing to dismantle the NHS and welfare state, which also gets trotted out before every election. 

I'm sure we'll soon start getting slogans like "30 days to save the state pension" like the "30 days to save the NHS" we got before previous elections

hugheskevi

zagfles said:

stripling said:

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

Aimed at fraud prevention?  Sadly, it happens.  The LGPS, for one, can quote umpteen cases of: Granny's/Granddad's pension is paid into a joint account with another family member, because it's "easier" to pay their bills/do their shopping for them.  Then Granny/Granddad dies, and the family member "forgets" to tell the LGPS.

Maybe also where someone lives abroad and claims the state pension. Or someone with an additional income they're not paying tax on

Just for the conspiracy theorists, just think about the timing of all this. There's an election next year. The Tories are likely to lose. Why would they, at this stage in the parliament, introduce nefarious powers which they intend to use for their top secret aim of means testing the state pension, which they have no chance whatsoever of implementing before the election, and in all likelyhood will just hand those powers over to Labour before being able to use them for their evil intent?

If they were doing this having just won an election, it may make sense. But just before an election they look like losing? Really? 

OTOH, a tweet from a Labour MP, in the run up to an election, implying the Tories are planning to means test the state pension? What could possibly be the motivation behind that

This.... using the label/insult  "conspiracy theory" to avoid actual evidence or engagement. Please don't - this is an interesting thread, let's not degrade it, I want to be able to update it further on. 

You need to actually read the thread then you would have noticed it wasn't a 'tweet by a Labour MP' it was a video clip of a House of Commons question.

The OP was a tweet from a Labour MP! 

Worth noting that the tweet was from Stephen Timms, Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee which is a Commons Select Committee. He was also a former Pension Minister under Labour, so has more credibility than other back-bench MPs. 

Steve_666_

flaneurs_lobster said:

Silvertabby said:

zagfles said:

Silvertabby said:

Aimed at fraud prevention?  Sadly, it happens.  The LGPS, for one, can quote umpteen cases of: Granny's/Granddad's pension is paid into a joint account with another family member, because it's "easier" to pay their bills/do their shopping for them.  Then Granny/Granddad dies, and the family member "forgets" to tell the LGPS.

Maybe also where someone lives abroad and claims the state pension. Or someone with an additional income they're not paying tax on

Just for the conspiracy theorists, just think about the timing of all this. There's an election next year. The Tories are likely to lose. Why would they, at this stage in the parliament, introduce nefarious powers which they intend to use for their top secret aim of means testing the state pension, which they have no chance whatsoever of implementing before the election, and in all likelyhood will just hand those powers over to Labour before being able to use them for their evil intent?

If they were doing this having just won an election, it may make sense. But just before an election they look like losing? Really? 

OTOH, a tweet from a Labour MP, in the run up to an election, implying the Tories are planning to means test the state pension? What could possibly be the motivation behind that

Just before the 1997 election, which Tony Blair won with a landslide, a Labour back bencher/supporter put out a rumour that the Tories intended to abolish the State pension.

Many existing pensioners, with no other income but the State pension, panicked at the idea of their only source of income being whipped away and voted Labour.

Excellent. I hope the same backbencher/supporter is still able to exercise such influence again.

I could start the ball rolling here by making up a bunch of stuff about the dreadful things the Tories are going to do if re-elected but they seem to be making a pretty good fist of that themselves.

OR make a list of the dreadful things the tories have done over the last 13 years, assuming you have enough time to get it done before the election!

DBdoobydoo

I live in France & receive a UK state pension. How will the UK government monitor my French bank account?

Pat38493

But why would any new law be introduced without it being made clear the reason why the law is needed?