John Lewis denying my right to repair or replacement?

StarlightStarbright455

RefluentBeans said:

I largely agree with what has been said on here. If that generation of product doesn’t exist anymore then the parts also will have likely gone (other than from donor products - which are often second hand themselves). You can push for a replacement but I think it’s an uphill battle. 

Also worth remembering that as Apple has said, they have no liability to you. Anyone who has felt with Apple will tell you that they look for any reason not to fulfil their liabilities - and so there’s no guarantee you’d be able to get a replacement from them even if they acknowledge the fault. If there’s water damage inside the earphones or case they may say it’s used error. Apple are excellent at saying what they could do in hypothetical situations but when these cases do come up, they do often put barriers in the way. 

You can attempt to sue JL into a full refund - you’d likely get it via a settlement agreement with their solicitors as it wouldn’t be worth the fight to them in court. But of course, they may instruct their solicitors to make a point and fight it. At that point a judge could rule they were right and you’re only going to get a partial refund. JL could also attempt to claim that headphones are consumable and that they can’t be held liable for the whole 6 years. 

The 6 year ‘rule’ is a limitation and not to say every product purchased should last 6 years. A car for example should last more than 6 years, but a pair of socks probably won’t. It’s the case of how long should a pair of AirPods last. Not a clear cut answer and I think the 6 year lifespan they’ve used to calculate the refund amount is actually generous. 

Actually Apple appear to have been meeting their legal obligation to consumers in the UK and replacing the faulty AirPod Pros even when they are out of warranty.  I did a quick search on X and there is lots of praise for them replacing them immediately when the fault is established.  There is information on the replacement programme on their website.  They do say on their website this in no way extends the normal warranty period, but the UK programme specifically states in the next line that ‘your consumer law rights are affected by the programme’.  This is why UK consumers outside of the warranty period have been given replacement AirPod Pros by Apple (newer generation, reconditioned, new AirPods but old case, whatever the option is I wouldn’t care - just AirPods that work!).  They seem to be applying the six years as a reasonable amount of time for the £249 AirPods Pro to last.  Maybe I’m being naive to believe the Apple Engineer when he told me that they would have swapped the AirPods then and there!  

John Lewis just won’t even enter into a debate about trying to arrange a replacement with Apple.  This is what I’m finding so frustrating.  I can’t ask Apple to replace the AirPods as they have no liability to me, but surely John Lewis could agree to give me the £178 to replace/repair (and then seek their own redress for losses incurred from Apple on the basis that the manufacturing defect has been proven and they have had to compensate me under the CRA).  

I won’t buy anything like this from John Lewis ever again - they aren’t interested at all in trying to come to a resolution.  I thought Apple would be the issue but they’ve actually been really helpful!  

StarlightStarbright455

screech_78 said:

StarlightStarbright455 said:

screech_78 said:

Yes, it’s fair as the cost of repairing is disproportionate on a four year old item.

And I can say with 99% certainty that they can’t replace your AirPods. The AirPods you have will be a different model which they will no longer stock. 

So a partial refund is fair. 

They do sell the same model online and in store (AirPods Pro) just the 2nd generation of this same model (which were developed to solve this manufacturing defect, ironically).  

Apple said to me that they would likely swap the defective AirPods for a new or reconditioned 2nd generation pair rather than repair if I’d bought directly with them.  I’d be absolutely fine with a reconditioned pair.  Not sure why JL have refused to deal with Apple on this issue and try to come to an arrangement that works for everyone - I asked them to do this.  They are very firm that they get to choose the remedy which is a partial refund and nothing else, so we have reached a deadlock.  

Not sure whether or not to take to ADR or accept the £85…but it will cost me £100+ to buy a new pair which I really can’t afford at the moment.   Expensive lesson learned to avoid JL in the future for Apple/electrical products!  

That’s not the same model. The AirPods Pro they currently stock are this years model with the new USB cable. 

I haven’t seen a case exactly like this with AirPods however have seen a case with a TV go to small claims. Original purchase price was something like £1400, failed after 3.5 years. Repair cost was something like £800 and so went with partial refund. Customer rejected because we could give them a replacement - we couldn’t, it was an updated model at the same price. It went to small claims and a partial refund was deemed as fair. Of course, there’s no precedent set in small claims but after 4 years, I cannot see anyway of you getting JL to replace. They’re fairly low value so you could go down the route of an LBA to see if that nudges them to settle but I don’t know. 

Edited to add: JL won’t use an ADR. 

Thank you, that’s really helpful information.  

I spoke to Citizen’s Advice and was told that not using ADR to try and resolve the matter before taking it to the Small Claims Court would be looked upon unfavourably by the court.  Interesting that you say that JL won’t use ADR as a way to try and resolve.  I may write to them and ask for it (so that they decline it in writing and I have it on record that they’ve refused ADR) and then proceed with the LBA.  

RefluentBeans

StarlightStarbright455 said:

RefluentBeans said:

I largely agree with what has been said on here. If that generation of product doesn’t exist anymore then the parts also will have likely gone (other than from donor products - which are often second hand themselves). You can push for a replacement but I think it’s an uphill battle. 

Also worth remembering that as Apple has said, they have no liability to you. Anyone who has felt with Apple will tell you that they look for any reason not to fulfil their liabilities - and so there’s no guarantee you’d be able to get a replacement from them even if they acknowledge the fault. If there’s water damage inside the earphones or case they may say it’s used error. Apple are excellent at saying what they could do in hypothetical situations but when these cases do come up, they do often put barriers in the way. 

You can attempt to sue JL into a full refund - you’d likely get it via a settlement agreement with their solicitors as it wouldn’t be worth the fight to them in court. But of course, they may instruct their solicitors to make a point and fight it. At that point a judge could rule they were right and you’re only going to get a partial refund. JL could also attempt to claim that headphones are consumable and that they can’t be held liable for the whole 6 years. 

The 6 year ‘rule’ is a limitation and not to say every product purchased should last 6 years. A car for example should last more than 6 years, but a pair of socks probably won’t. It’s the case of how long should a pair of AirPods last. Not a clear cut answer and I think the 6 year lifespan they’ve used to calculate the refund amount is actually generous. 

Actually Apple appear to have been meeting their legal obligation to consumers in the UK and replacing the faulty AirPod Pros even when they are out of warranty.  I did a quick search on X and there is lots of praise for them replacing them immediately when the fault is established.  There is information on the replacement programme on their website.  They do say on their website this in no way extends the normal warranty period, but the UK programme specifically states in the next line that ‘your consumer law rights are affected by the programme’.  This is why UK consumers outside of the warranty period have been given replacement AirPod Pros by Apple (newer generation, reconditioned, new AirPods but old case, whatever the option is I wouldn’t care - just AirPods that work!).  They seem to be applying the six years as a reasonable amount of time for the £249 AirPods Pro to last.  Maybe I’m being naive to believe the Apple Engineer when he told me that they would have swapped the AirPods then and there!  

John Lewis just won’t even enter into a debate about trying to arrange a replacement with Apple.  This is what I’m finding so frustrating.  I can’t ask Apple to replace the AirPods as they have no liability to me, but surely John Lewis could agree to give me the £178 to replace/repair (and then seek their own redress for losses incurred from Apple on the basis that the manufacturing defect has been proven and they have had to compensate me under the CRA).  

I won’t buy anything like this from John Lewis ever again - they aren’t interested at all in trying to come to a resolution.  I thought Apple would be the issue but they’ve actually been really helpful!  

The screenshots literally says the scheme is limited to 3 years from the first retail sale of the unit. You bought them in December 2019, so would be outside of this scheme anyway. If you purchased from Apple it seems you’d have the claim rejected. 

JL and Apple will have a B2B contract. They will not have the same level of protection as consumers do. If JL has assessed them as not being faulty under CRA there is no obligation to speak to the manufacturer. 

Personally, I think the offer is incredibly generous, and looks like they are trying to give you a solution. If you disagree, like I said you can write to them and advise you’ll be seeking remedies via small claims court, but this will stop any negotiations. When it gets sent to their lawyers they’ll probably just pay up, but if not you can either walk away, try and accept the previous offer (they may rescind the offer), or take it to court. For an extra £90 I personally don’t think it’s worth the hassle, but it’s up to you. 

ArbitraryRandom

StarlightStarbright455 said:

John Lewis just won’t even enter into a debate about trying to arrange a replacement with Apple.  This is what I’m finding so frustrating.  I can’t ask Apple to replace the AirPods as they have no liability to me, but surely John Lewis could agree to give me the £178 to replace/repair (and then seek their own redress for losses incurred from Apple on the basis that the manufacturing defect has been proven and they have had to compensate me under the CRA).  

Businesses don't have 'consumer' rights - they have whatever's in the contract - if the product was found to be faulty while still in the warehouse then their insurance or the contract with Apple would almost certainly cover the write-off cost, but I can't think of any b2b contract I've ever read including anything about liability for products sold more than 2 years ago.

I'd put their chances of winning 'redress' from Apple at about the same as your chances of winning if you asked for specific performance at small claims... 

StarlightStarbright455

RefluentBeans said:

StarlightStarbright455 said:

RefluentBeans said:

I largely agree with what has been said on here. If that generation of product doesn’t exist anymore then the parts also will have likely gone (other than from donor products - which are often second hand themselves). You can push for a replacement but I think it’s an uphill battle. 

Also worth remembering that as Apple has said, they have no liability to you. Anyone who has felt with Apple will tell you that they look for any reason not to fulfil their liabilities - and so there’s no guarantee you’d be able to get a replacement from them even if they acknowledge the fault. If there’s water damage inside the earphones or case they may say it’s used error. Apple are excellent at saying what they could do in hypothetical situations but when these cases do come up, they do often put barriers in the way. 

You can attempt to sue JL into a full refund - you’d likely get it via a settlement agreement with their solicitors as it wouldn’t be worth the fight to them in court. But of course, they may instruct their solicitors to make a point and fight it. At that point a judge could rule they were right and you’re only going to get a partial refund. JL could also attempt to claim that headphones are consumable and that they can’t be held liable for the whole 6 years. 

The 6 year ‘rule’ is a limitation and not to say every product purchased should last 6 years. A car for example should last more than 6 years, but a pair of socks probably won’t. It’s the case of how long should a pair of AirPods last. Not a clear cut answer and I think the 6 year lifespan they’ve used to calculate the refund amount is actually generous. 

Actually Apple appear to have been meeting their legal obligation to consumers in the UK and replacing the faulty AirPod Pros even when they are out of warranty.  I did a quick search on X and there is lots of praise for them replacing them immediately when the fault is established.  There is information on the replacement programme on their website.  They do say on their website this in no way extends the normal warranty period, but the UK programme specifically states in the next line that ‘your consumer law rights are affected by the programme’.  This is why UK consumers outside of the warranty period have been given replacement AirPod Pros by Apple (newer generation, reconditioned, new AirPods but old case, whatever the option is I wouldn’t care - just AirPods that work!).  They seem to be applying the six years as a reasonable amount of time for the £249 AirPods Pro to last.  Maybe I’m being naive to believe the Apple Engineer when he told me that they would have swapped the AirPods then and there!  

John Lewis just won’t even enter into a debate about trying to arrange a replacement with Apple.  This is what I’m finding so frustrating.  I can’t ask Apple to replace the AirPods as they have no liability to me, but surely John Lewis could agree to give me the £178 to replace/repair (and then seek their own redress for losses incurred from Apple on the basis that the manufacturing defect has been proven and they have had to compensate me under the CRA).  

I won’t buy anything like this from John Lewis ever again - they aren’t interested at all in trying to come to a resolution.  I thought Apple would be the issue but they’ve actually been really helpful!  

The screenshots literally says the scheme is limited to 3 years from the first retail sale of the unit. You bought them in December 2019, so would be outside of this scheme anyway. If you purchased from Apple it seems you’d have the claim rejected. 

JL and Apple will have a B2B contract. They will not have the same level of protection as consumers do. If JL has assessed them as not being faulty under CRA there is no obligation to speak to the manufacturer. 

Personally, I think the offer is incredibly generous, and looks like they are trying to give you a solution. If you disagree, like I said you can write to them and advise you’ll be seeking remedies via small claims court, but this will stop any negotiations. When it gets sent to their lawyers they’ll probably just pay up, but if not you can either walk away, try and accept the previous offer (they may rescind the offer), or take it to court. For an extra £90 I personally don’t think it’s worth the hassle, but it’s up to you. 

I wasn’t saying that I think I’d be entitled to claim under the replacement programme.  I’m aware they are outside of the 3 year warranty.  This was just to show that Apple have admitted to the manufacturing defect and have replaced AirPods Pros outside of the 3 year warranty period under the CRA (only when they have been bought directly from Apple).  They do clearly say it doesn’t extend the warranty, but they do repair or replace them (for only this specific defect) within the six year period of the statute of limitations as the fault represents a breach of the consumer’s right to expect goods of a satisfactory quality.  

JL accepted my claim under the CRA because the goods were not of satisfactory quality at time of delivery due to the manufacturing defect, even though they are well outside of the warranty period.  

My issue is JL’s outright refusal to even consider my right to a repair (or replacement).  

RefluentBeans

StarlightStarbright455 said:

RefluentBeans said:

StarlightStarbright455 said:

RefluentBeans said:

I largely agree with what has been said on here. If that generation of product doesn’t exist anymore then the parts also will have likely gone (other than from donor products - which are often second hand themselves). You can push for a replacement but I think it’s an uphill battle. 

Also worth remembering that as Apple has said, they have no liability to you. Anyone who has felt with Apple will tell you that they look for any reason not to fulfil their liabilities - and so there’s no guarantee you’d be able to get a replacement from them even if they acknowledge the fault. If there’s water damage inside the earphones or case they may say it’s used error. Apple are excellent at saying what they could do in hypothetical situations but when these cases do come up, they do often put barriers in the way. 

You can attempt to sue JL into a full refund - you’d likely get it via a settlement agreement with their solicitors as it wouldn’t be worth the fight to them in court. But of course, they may instruct their solicitors to make a point and fight it. At that point a judge could rule they were right and you’re only going to get a partial refund. JL could also attempt to claim that headphones are consumable and that they can’t be held liable for the whole 6 years. 

The 6 year ‘rule’ is a limitation and not to say every product purchased should last 6 years. A car for example should last more than 6 years, but a pair of socks probably won’t. It’s the case of how long should a pair of AirPods last. Not a clear cut answer and I think the 6 year lifespan they’ve used to calculate the refund amount is actually generous. 

Actually Apple appear to have been meeting their legal obligation to consumers in the UK and replacing the faulty AirPod Pros even when they are out of warranty.  I did a quick search on X and there is lots of praise for them replacing them immediately when the fault is established.  There is information on the replacement programme on their website.  They do say on their website this in no way extends the normal warranty period, but the UK programme specifically states in the next line that ‘your consumer law rights are affected by the programme’.  This is why UK consumers outside of the warranty period have been given replacement AirPod Pros by Apple (newer generation, reconditioned, new AirPods but old case, whatever the option is I wouldn’t care - just AirPods that work!).  They seem to be applying the six years as a reasonable amount of time for the £249 AirPods Pro to last.  Maybe I’m being naive to believe the Apple Engineer when he told me that they would have swapped the AirPods then and there!  

John Lewis just won’t even enter into a debate about trying to arrange a replacement with Apple.  This is what I’m finding so frustrating.  I can’t ask Apple to replace the AirPods as they have no liability to me, but surely John Lewis could agree to give me the £178 to replace/repair (and then seek their own redress for losses incurred from Apple on the basis that the manufacturing defect has been proven and they have had to compensate me under the CRA).  

I won’t buy anything like this from John Lewis ever again - they aren’t interested at all in trying to come to a resolution.  I thought Apple would be the issue but they’ve actually been really helpful!  

The screenshots literally says the scheme is limited to 3 years from the first retail sale of the unit. You bought them in December 2019, so would be outside of this scheme anyway. If you purchased from Apple it seems you’d have the claim rejected. 

JL and Apple will have a B2B contract. They will not have the same level of protection as consumers do. If JL has assessed them as not being faulty under CRA there is no obligation to speak to the manufacturer. 

Personally, I think the offer is incredibly generous, and looks like they are trying to give you a solution. If you disagree, like I said you can write to them and advise you’ll be seeking remedies via small claims court, but this will stop any negotiations. When it gets sent to their lawyers they’ll probably just pay up, but if not you can either walk away, try and accept the previous offer (they may rescind the offer), or take it to court. For an extra £90 I personally don’t think it’s worth the hassle, but it’s up to you. 

I wasn’t saying that I think I’d be entitled to claim under the replacement programme.  I’m aware they are outside of the 3 year warranty.  This was just to show that Apple have admitted to the manufacturing defect and have replaced AirPods Pros outside of the 3 year warranty period under the CRA (only when they have been bought directly from Apple).  They do clearly say it doesn’t extend the warranty, but they do repair or replace them (for only this specific defect) within the six year period of the statute of limitations as the fault represents a breach of the consumer’s right to expect goods of a satisfactory quality.  

JL accepted my claim under the CRA because the goods were not of satisfactory quality at time of delivery due to the manufacturing defect, even though they are well outside of the warranty period.  

My issue is JL’s outright refusal to even consider my right to a repair (or replacement).  

But JL have considered it. They likely haven’t got the parts to repair a 4 year old discontinued product, and the model (AirPods Pro (1st generation)) have been discontinued, so they can’t replace it. That then leaves a refund. Retailers can deduct money off the refund based on age and condition of the product, which JL have done. 

You’re argument is that Apple said if they sold you the product they’d replace it. Apple can say whatever they want as they’ve got no liability to you (and they of course could replace the product for you if they wanted to - they made the product so they can replace the product if they wanted to - but they don’t want to). 

Your next claim is that there was a program, by Apple, that said there was a known defect of these products, and that any affected unit could be replaced if it was returned within three years (that’s what the ‘This Program covers affected AirPod Pro for 3 years after the first retail sale of the unit’ line means - they’re limiting the exposure of the program to three years from the original sale). This is on top of your consumer rights, and does not replace them. This is not the warranty (which is normally 12 months) or AppleCare (which is normally 36 months), but in addition to those. 

Taking away what Apple said, as neither of those points help or hinder your case really, then JL have followed the CRA, but the CRA doesn’t have a mechanism to compel a retailer to fix something they have no parts for; or a replace something they have no direct equivalent replacement for - what it does have is a fall back option of a refund. 

Now you could go back and ask if it’s possible for a replacement set of AirPods but they have no obligation to provide the updated generation. Again, just because Apple says it’s their policy doesn’t mean it’s everyone else’s policy. In the same way if JL had a policy to give a £25 goodwill voucher for every faulty Apple item returned, you couldn’t compel Apple to do the same. Apple often muddies the waters by being a retailer who also makes the devices. The people you speak to are firmly in the retail part, and not in the manufacturing side. It means they can speak to things that Apple Retail would do (policies they have) but can’t speak to what Apple Manufacturing would do. 

Grumpy_chap

What is the difference between Airpod and Airpod Pro?
The OP has been offered partial refund of £85.
JL currently retailing Airpod at £99.
Could the OP close that gap?
It might even be possible to get JL to improve their offer to that point.

MattMattMattUK

Grumpy_chap said:

What is the difference between Airpod and Airpod Pro?
The OP has been offered partial refund of £85.
JL currently retailing Airpod at £99.
Could the OP close that gap?
It might even be possible to get JL to improve their offer to that point.

Quite a lot on a tech level, but even for someone with normal hearing there is a significant difference in audio quality between them. I am not an Apple user and never would be, but I have heard the sound through both and the sounds on the AirPod is in my opinion pretty poor, where as on the AirPod Pro it is acceptable. There are also other benefits such as touch controls, longer battery life, water resistance etc. 

If I were the OP I would accept the £85, largely because it seems entirely reasonable based on the usage and I do not think that they are entitled to anything more, they seem to want to flog a dead horse.