The Home office VISA sub-contractors cost me an extra £2000. What are my rights?

ArbitraryRandom

JDV10 said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

JDV10 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Its not 100% clear over what timescale you say you have sent 558 emails but even if its the full 5 months I would certainly consider omitting the number as that is still 3 emails a day type territory which is not a reasonable number and could even be part of the cause.

Your complaint is to who you are ultimately dealing with, if an organisation decides to outsource that's their right but they remain on the hook for it. Don't fall for thinking of things as separated. 

It was about 8 weeks with no response from their customer service, the only way I got any reply is when I was sending an email every hour.

I spoke to the home office, they said "We don't have anything to do with the VISA process, we have no contacts for VFS and don't deal with them at all".

Beyond bizarre. I asked for a copy of the contract between VFS and the home office and was told it doesn't exist. I refuse to believe that, and just handed it down to pure incompetence on their part. I removed the names of whom I was dealing with at the home office.

It's possible you're talking to the wrong department - UKVI awarded the contract.  


Either way, they wouldn't share it with you as it's commercially sensitive information (and not relevant as the issue would be the service contract between you and VFS, not if VFS are in breach of their contract with UK Gov). 

There is no contract between myself and VFS, it's all between UKVI and myself, as UKVI direct the service towards VFS with no alternative option (Or support when there are issues like this).

Apologies, I'm not familiar with the process - but it doesn't change that you have no rights under the contract between UKVI and a third party, so it's not relevant to your case... what matters is the terms between you and (as you say) UKVI. 

JDV10

ArbitraryRandom said:

Apologies, I'm not familiar with the process - but it doesn't change that you have no rights under the contract between UKVI and a third party, so it's not relevant to your case... what matters is the terms between you and (as you say) UKVI. 

I'm not sure if there are any strict terms of service with regards to timeline, however, is there not a "General" right to a reasonable timeline?

Theoretically if there isn't, they could just draw this out forever and never provide the service under the guise "We're just getting around to it".

SiliconChip

You say in your preamble "I have complained to my MP about this with little support" but in your letter you say "My local MP - Taiwo Owatemi is aware of this situation and is supporting me to progress", so which is it? I have no knowledge of the process but I think asking your MP to raise it is probably the option that is most likely to achieve a result for you, but you may need to make a bit of a nuisance of yoursel (politely of course) with her to ensure she takes your issue to a conclusion.

JDV10

SiliconChip said:

You say in your preamble "I have complained to my MP about this with little support" but in your letter you say "My local MP - Taiwo Owatemi is aware of this situation and is supporting me to progress", so which is it? I have no knowledge of the process but I think asking your MP to raise it is probably the option that is most likely to achieve a result for you, but you may need to make a bit of a nuisance of yoursel (politely of course) with her to ensure she takes your issue to a conclusion.

It's a bit of both honestly. Not from lack of trying on her and her teams part, it's just the home office and VFS are "Practically worthless" - Not my words.
Their power is essentially to prod and poke them until they do something, which is the extent of mine, except they can prod and poke a little higher up the chain.

I did contact them again today in a phone call, and they said that it's been far too long and not acceptable, so they're going to follow up again. My MP has weekly meetings with the home office, so should hopefully move along.

The previous issue seems to be VFS and UKVI seem to want nothing to do with one and other, as much as possible.

user1977

JDV10 said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

Apologies, I'm not familiar with the process - but it doesn't change that you have no rights under the contract between UKVI and a third party, so it's not relevant to your case... what matters is the terms between you and (as you say) UKVI. 

I'm not sure if there are any strict terms of service with regards to timeline, however, is there not a "General" right to a reasonable timeline?

Where would such a right be derived from?

I'm not sure this is really a "service" at all in legal terms, it's the Government deciding who they'd like to let into the country. They can set all sorts of arbitrary hoops (until you get to the stage of them actually breaching human rights or being so arbitrary that it can be challenged via judicial review - but that's expensive and difficult).

As I mentioned above, if you already have a solicitor, haven't you discussed this with them? Presumably they deal with these sorts of issues on a day-to-day basis and can at least advise whether this is normal and there's nothing you can do about it, or suggest other avenues.

DullGreyGuy

SiliconChip said:

I have no knowledge of the process but I think asking your MP to raise it is probably the option that is most likely to achieve a result for you

We raised our own issues with the HO (different division) with our MP and for two weeks spoke regularly to one of his office managers. 

We managed to get our issue resolved ourselves, did leave a VM for the MP but never got a response to it. Then 7 months later and out the blue we got a letter from our MP saying "please find enclosed the response from the Home Office" and stapled to that letter was a short note from the relevant part of the HO telling the MP he didn't have data protection clearance to discuss the matter. 

ArbitraryRandom

JDV10 said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

Apologies, I'm not familiar with the process - but it doesn't change that you have no rights under the contract between UKVI and a third party, so it's not relevant to your case... what matters is the terms between you and (as you say) UKVI. 

I'm not sure if there are any strict terms of service with regards to timeline, however, is there not a "General" right to a reasonable timeline?

Theoretically if there isn't, they could just draw this out forever and never provide the service under the guise "We're just getting around to it".

Sure, if we assume UK consumer law applies, but have fun arguing it does and what that is when it comes to a visa application and an unknown technical problem - this might help understand how complicated that can be (different scenario as this is B2B about software, but the same kind of things would be considered): 

This first instance Judgment offers useful guidance on the various factors a court might take into consideration when deciding whether a party exceeded a reasonable time in performance of its contractual obligations... 

There was no express agreement that the Software would be implemented by 6 March 2001 and the contract offered no guidance on what constituted 'reasonable time', a term implied into the contract by s14(1) of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. The Judge felt that, in addition to the application of hindsight, it was essential to give regard to all the circumstances as they existed at the time, to evaluate what would have been a reasonable time for performance, and then come to a conclusion about whether that had been exceeded.

Such circumstances included: any time estimate given by Astea, whether this had been exceeded; whether it was necessary for Time or any third party to assist in the performance of the contract; and the cause(s) of the delay. He found that Astea had not been in breach at 6 March 2001. The fact that Time had not in any event been in a position to accept the software earlier than October 2001 and Astea's generally helpful attitude and competence in devoting resources to the project persuaded the Judge that Astea had not exceeded a reasonable time for performance.

https://cms-lawnow.com/en/ealerts/2004/05/clarification-on-what-constitutes-reasonable-time-for-performance

A technical issue with the website might be considered a legitimate reason for delay - and I have to agree that 'hourly' emails could be argued to be a contributing factor given the admin resource (aka time) required to process them and the issues they can cause for any new agent picking up the ticket trying to understand the core issue; at the very least they don't make it look like you have been acting 'reasonably' trying to get the issue resolved. 

On the face of it, I think you have grounds to make a complaint (and there's a complaints process here: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-visas-and-immigration/about/complaints-procedure) - but I think you need to be realistic about the outcome... 

If we treat this as a typical UK consumer service contract, if they have no provided the service in a reasonable time, then you are entitled to 'a repeat performance' (which is to say to have your fee refunded and try again) - but the consequential issues around your loss of interest and the housing situation for your spouse are unlikely (IMO) to be the responsibility of UKVAS - or at least not their sole responsibility. 

Okell

JDV10 said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

JDV10 said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Its not 100% clear over what timescale you say you have sent 558 emails but even if its the full 5 months I would certainly consider omitting the number as that is still 3 emails a day type territory which is not a reasonable number and could even be part of the cause.

Your complaint is to who you are ultimately dealing with, if an organisation decides to outsource that's their right but they remain on the hook for it. Don't fall for thinking of things as separated. 

It was about 8 weeks with no response from their customer service, the only way I got any reply is when I was sending an email every hour.

I spoke to the home office, they said "We don't have anything to do with the VISA process, we have no contacts for VFS and don't deal with them at all".

Beyond bizarre. I asked for a copy of the contract between VFS and the home office and was told it doesn't exist. I refuse to believe that, and just handed it down to pure incompetence on their part. I removed the names of whom I was dealing with at the home office.

It's possible you're talking to the wrong department - UKVI awarded the contract.  


Either way, they wouldn't share it with you as it's commercially sensitive information (and not relevant as the issue would be the service contract between you and VFS, not if VFS are in breach of their contract with UK Gov). 

There is no contract between myself and VFS, it's all between UKVI and myself, as UKVI direct the service towards VFS with no alternative option (Or support when there are issues like this).

I don't quite understand what you mean by that(?).

If you are trying to say that you have a contract with UKVI, I don't think you do.  And neither will your wife.

You will have no contractual - or "consumer" - remedy in this.  If your wife is not a refugee or asylum seeker, does she have an enforceable right either to a VISA or to enter the UK?  (I'm asking because I honestly don't know the answer...)

Surely the solicitor who has previously helped you to make the application could help you better than an online consumer forum?

Okell

SiliconChip said:

You say in your preamble "I have complained to my MP about this with little support" but in your letter you say "My local MP - Taiwo Owatemi is aware of this situation and is supporting me to progress", so which is it? I have no knowledge of the process but I think asking your MP to raise it is probably the option that is most likely to achieve a result for you, but you may need to make a bit of a nuisance of yoursel (politely of course) with her to ensure she takes your issue to a conclusion.

I agree with ^^^^.  The OP needs to press his MP and not send 70 emails a day to VFS (or whoever).  This is the sort of thing an MP ought to be assisting constituents with.

@JDV10 -  as your wife is a US citizen, has she contacted the US embassy in London (or is there a local US consulate) for help or advice?  I'd be surprised if she were the only US citizen expereiencing difficulty with this sort of problem and they might help