"Best" Way of Car Ownership

Johnmcl7

jimjames said:

scaredofdebt said:

Now obviously bangernomics should be cheapest but to be honest I cannot be bothered with the hassle, don't have the knowledge any more and I need a reliable car.  The problem I find with older cars is they can suddenly go wrong and cost a lot to fix and be off the road for a while which is really inconvenient.

Old cars don't need to be unreliable. My 22 year old car is currently doing 100 mile daily commutes as well as 500 mile weekend trips without issue. My 15 year old car did 2000 miles across Europe in the summer. If well maintained they can keep going well.

My 13 year old car Mazda runs well too and the only actual failure I can think of in the last ten years is a component in the stereo which cost £250 so not a big deal.  It's been an extremely reliable car and while a warranty on a new car means there's no cost, it doesn't guarantee no faults and it can be hassle getting the car up and down to the garage for repairs.  In terms of predictable vs unpredictable costs I've never had a car that had repair bills which came anywhere close to the losses from depreciation on a new car.

Also while speaking of hassle I find changing cars to be a huge hassle so having a car that's reliable and I can keep for a long time is a big plus.  

scaredofdebt

Nobbie1967 said:

As you’ve had an EV for three years, I assume it suits your requirements, so a three year old EV would probably be ideal for you. You’ve missed the initial depreciation and at three years old it should be pretty reliable and you can pay for an extended manufacturer warranty for peace of mind. Here’s one for £12.5 from a dealer with 48k. Run for three years and switch to another three year old car.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310132957795?sort=price-asc&fuel-type=Electric&make=MG&postcode=sk94bg&radius=1500&year-to=2020&advertising-location=at_cars&fromsra

Yes, thanks for the info.

The EV I have is about £15k for a 3 year old and £31k brand new so I suppose I am paying for the depreciation.  They do a 5 year warranty so definitely an option to get a 3 year old one just need to save up a bit more, or lease another.  Will do some thinking.

Goudy

There are older cars that do make some sense to run on a bangernomics principle and other perhaps wouldn't.

For instance a lot of Fords Ecoboost Fiestas are now looking at cam belt changes due to there age, the ones that have survived this far that is.
As it's a wet belt the costs are expensive, you're looking a bill of over a £1000 just to change a service item. You can  almost double that at a dealership.

It would be perhaps a bit daft to buy a 9 or 10 years old one now to run on a tight budget.

Similarly we see a lot of older, modern cars develop some expensive faults or service requirements that tend to show up around a certain age, things like diesel DPFs and injectors, turbos, clutches and dual mass flywheels and the likes. We read of them daily on this forum.

That causes some of these to have an ownership sweet spot, after which they can often become expensive, usually for the next owner as the previous owners has likely known when to part ways with it.

Older, older cars tend to be far more simpler and as such tend to less expensive and fussy to keep running.

I would be shocked if the recent 22 year old example used anything as fussy and costly as a wet cam belt.
I don't know what car it is but I would hazard a guess it's using an updated version of quite an old engine design which some tried and tested engineering.

They do have their own troubles though. The powers that be really want these types of vehicles off the road due to emissions or they like them on the road because of their emissions so they can charge extra for them to use that road.

There comes a point when someone realises it was once a good idea but it isn't suitable for them anymore.
I've been known to roll around under cars, swap clutches on a drive and the likes in the past, back then it wasn't a hassle, I actually enjoyed it.

These days, ringing around dealerships or searching the internet from a comfy chair to try and bag my next deal isn't a hassle and neither is popping around to the dealership on set day and time to sign a few papers and pick it up.

Someone has expressed an interest in the costs of ownership of a new or nearly new car as they have stated they have already had few goes over the years with older cars.
Perhaps they might find others experiences of doing this more helpful than the experiences of other doing what they don't want to do any more. 

Mildly_Miffed

There is no guaranteed "lowest cost".

You could buy a cheap old shed, and have minimal problems, and be quids-in. Or it might have a raft of problems and need to be thrown away. If it's petrol, then anything 2004 or newer is ULEZ compliant, if that's a thing for you.

If you want as near to a guaranteed monthly budget figure as possible - then finance something new under manufacturer's warranty. But even that can have extra costs... And that low monthly suddenly becomes a big number per mile when multipled by 36 months, and divided by 8,000 miles per year...

Possibly the best compromise of budgetable and low overall cost is to get something 4-5yrs old, especially if it's got a long manufacturer warranty.

Petriix

It's an impossible question to answer because you're guessing about various factors which will impact the overall cost. With leasing you are choosing to fix the costs over a known period, PCP gives you a maximum cost with a chance of benefiting from lower than expected depreciation, outright purchase exposes you to all the risks (or potential gains).

Buying new (normally) gives you lower maintenance costs because everything is covered by warranty but high depreciation, the older the car the lower the (typical) depreciation but the higher the maintenance costs (obviously luck dependant). Then there are other factors which can impact the overall market and total costs: chip shortages recently caused negative depreciation. EV grants also impacted depreciation.

Depending on the milage you do, the low running costs of an EV will have more or less of an impact on the overall picture. At 10k miles you could be looking at a fuel saving of £2k per year. EV servicing can also be much cheaper than an equivalent fossil vehicle, then there's the (currently) zero VED too.

There's no 'one size fits all' answer but there are some good deals to be had if you're flexible about what you get. Occasionally there is a batch of brand new cars being heavily discounted, often via lease. There were recently some CorsaEs for under £20k new. Otherwise, recent higher depreciation has made some 2-3 year old EVs particularly attractive with Zoe ZE50s for as little as £10k and this is the sort of thing I'd be looking for if I was buying today. 

Bobby3210

WellKnownSid said:

valueman1 said:

Depreciation tends to the biggest cost of all, so worth focussing on that in the total cost equation. With EVs there are a lot of unknowns, cost of battery replacement, residual value, risk that a superior form of battery could make your car obsolete etc. I think insurance can be high.

There are plenty of EVs that have been around 10+ years.  A one year old EV may have already depreciated by 60% but will probably have 7+ years of battery warranty left.  Unlike ICEs which depreciate to nothing, EV still have a residual value which never really goes away unless they are broken.

I'm not convinced by the obsolescence argument.  Superior battery technology has been touted for some time - but isn't here yet.  If this miracle new battery ever appeared and was so cheap and instantly available as to render existing cars obsolete overnight, then the owners of said cars would just swap their batteries.  The reality is that cars are pretty ephemeral anyway - although I get why the FOBO argument might hold some people back.  I think Toyota has championed that approach with their hydrogen claims - 'don't buy now, hydrogen is coming...'

Although car insurance never changed much this year for us, I have seen plenty of quotes in the press that some guy swapped from a 1 litre group 3 Fiesta to a group 50 Tesla and ended up paying thousands more for insurance.  Never saw that coming, such a shock and surprise.

Then I saw an article on the "hidden costs of EVs" where a bloke was complaining about the rear tyres on his Porsche supercar cost him £700 every 10,000 miles.  First world problems.

Got an EV by any chance?

WellKnownSid

Bobby3210 said:

WellKnownSid said:

valueman1 said:

Depreciation tends to the biggest cost of all, so worth focussing on that in the total cost equation. With EVs there are a lot of unknowns, cost of battery replacement, residual value, risk that a superior form of battery could make your car obsolete etc. I think insurance can be high.

There are plenty of EVs that have been around 10+ years.  A one year old EV may have already depreciated by 60% but will probably have 7+ years of battery warranty left.  Unlike ICEs which depreciate to nothing, EV still have a residual value which never really goes away unless they are broken.

I'm not convinced by the obsolescence argument.  Superior battery technology has been touted for some time - but isn't here yet.  If this miracle new battery ever appeared and was so cheap and instantly available as to render existing cars obsolete overnight, then the owners of said cars would just swap their batteries.  The reality is that cars are pretty ephemeral anyway - although I get why the FOBO argument might hold some people back.  I think Toyota has championed that approach with their hydrogen claims - 'don't buy now, hydrogen is coming...'

Although car insurance never changed much this year for us, I have seen plenty of quotes in the press that some guy swapped from a 1 litre group 3 Fiesta to a group 50 Tesla and ended up paying thousands more for insurance.  Never saw that coming, such a shock and surprise.

Then I saw an article on the "hidden costs of EVs" where a bloke was complaining about the rear tyres on his Porsche supercar cost him £700 every 10,000 miles.  First world problems.

Got an EV by any chance?

Strangely yes.  And it wasn't economically viable for me to make that switch until this year - 0% finance from the Scottish Government, 11 month old EVs being sold for 60% off, and residual value in my old diesel.

Had I purchased a brand new EV 11 months ago for £33+k, I would probably have been in tears right now, but instead I'm laughing...

Bigwheels1111

I opted for a pre reg 66 plate Peugeot 5008 1.6 bluehdi with 5 miles on the clock.
Saved about 47% off list price.
I take out Peugeot’s extended warranty every year and will until it’s 10 years old.
£14,350 for the car, £2500 for warranty until 10 years old.
£17k all in.
I’m ahead warranty wise as had a washer pipe replaced at £250 & Adblue tank at £1800.
Cheap main dealer serving £13.42 a month years 1-5. Years 6-10 £14.99.
Only replaced one set of tyres in 7 years.
Plus a stop light bulb, that’s all.
I hope to keep it for 15 years or more, dependant on Ulez as is a euro 6 diesel.

Goudy

WellKnownSid said:

Bobby3210 said:

WellKnownSid said:

valueman1 said:

Depreciation tends to the biggest cost of all, so worth focussing on that in the total cost equation. With EVs there are a lot of unknowns, cost of battery replacement, residual value, risk that a superior form of battery could make your car obsolete etc. I think insurance can be high.

There are plenty of EVs that have been around 10+ years.  A one year old EV may have already depreciated by 60% but will probably have 7+ years of battery warranty left.  Unlike ICEs which depreciate to nothing, EV still have a residual value which never really goes away unless they are broken.

I'm not convinced by the obsolescence argument.  Superior battery technology has been touted for some time - but isn't here yet.  If this miracle new battery ever appeared and was so cheap and instantly available as to render existing cars obsolete overnight, then the owners of said cars would just swap their batteries.  The reality is that cars are pretty ephemeral anyway - although I get why the FOBO argument might hold some people back.  I think Toyota has championed that approach with their hydrogen claims - 'don't buy now, hydrogen is coming...'

Although car insurance never changed much this year for us, I have seen plenty of quotes in the press that some guy swapped from a 1 litre group 3 Fiesta to a group 50 Tesla and ended up paying thousands more for insurance.  Never saw that coming, such a shock and surprise.

Then I saw an article on the "hidden costs of EVs" where a bloke was complaining about the rear tyres on his Porsche supercar cost him £700 every 10,000 miles.  First world problems.

Got an EV by any chance?

Strangely yes.  And it wasn't economically viable for me to make that switch until this year - 0% finance from the Scottish Government, 11 month old EVs being sold for 60% off, and residual value in my old diesel.

Had I purchased a brand new EV 11 months ago for £33+k, I would probably have been in tears right now, but instead I'm laughing...

Something like this would obviously need factoring in with any decision.

Although many on this forum state that EV's don't depreciate any faster than ICE's, that doesn't appear whole story.
I don't think there are many cars that lose anything close to 60% so quickly, OK that is just one example but it has been repeatedly mentioned on other threads that used EV's are becoming as cheap as similar used ICE's.

We know EV's generally cost more when new than ICE's, this has to mean they have to have a higher depreciation rate, otherwise they'd never catch up.

This has certainly worked out very bad for the first owner but appears very good for the current one, unless that trend continues.

Hopefully the depreciation stabilises enough or the owner buys in to the car low enough so ownership and running costs can out strip the continued depreciation as ownership continues.
Which seems highly likely if you can power the EV at a cheap enough rate most of the time.

There are also some geographical considerations and not just the ability to finance at 0% in Scotland.
The old diesel could likely be worth a lot less in another area, say in or around London if it wasn't ULEZ compliant.

I guess this car came with the remainder of it's warranty (anything up to 6+ years) and some other benefits like breakdown cover which you may have had to pay for on the old diesel.

Yes, EV's are generally more reliable but these days breakdown cover can cover running out of fuel, most cars no longer come with a spare wheel, so they can help with punctures and the likes.

Going back to the original question, yes it's possible to buy in to a new or nearly new car and negate a lot of that depreciation, but really depreciation is just another cost of use.

It's also just as true you could get it very wrong and it costs you far more than you wanted, which judging the tears comment, the original owner may have done just that.

It's finding where that sweet spot is for you on any given car.