Not giving 28 days annual leave is this something I should pursue?

stu12345_2

elsien said:

n1guy said:

stu12345_2 said:

when you start a job, you accept the general terms of the job, it doesnt have to be in writing, it can be verbal, but the employer must produce a written contract within 2 months of starting.
 so your job is basically mon to friday with friday being optional.  So if you do always go in on a  friday they have to pay you 38 hrs  worth of holiday pay, cos you did the full mon to fri 38 hrs hours.

So as far as I’m concerned I was told I work Monday to Friday, nothing was ever mentioned to me by management of Friday being optional, this came from other employees. Now next year I can see the fall out occurring they getting 21
days while me looking 28.  Hence why I think I’m better cutting my losses sooner rather that later

dont worry about fall out, as your workmates will be off on holiday on  mon to thu, cos they never go in on a  friday, but you will be off mon to friday, cos you normally do the full 5 days, so nobody has any argument, they did less hours they get less hols.
and anyway, if you had a week off when they are in, they wouldnt know any difference cos they only do mon to thu, and they wouldnt see you anyway for 4 days, cos thats their norm, cos they only do 4 days. but if its factory shutdown, you wouldnt see each other anyway for 2 weeks, you just get the bigger pay packet than them

n1guy

elsien said:

n1guy said:

stu12345_2 said:

when you start a job, you accept the general terms of the job, it doesnt have to be in writing, it can be verbal, but the employer must produce a written contract within 2 months of starting.
 so your job is basically mon to friday with friday being optional.  So if you do always go in on a  friday they have to pay you 38 hrs  worth of holiday pay, cos you did the full mon to fri 38 hrs hours.

So as far as I’m concerned I was told I work Monday to Friday, nothing was ever mentioned to me by management of Friday being optional, this came from other employees. Now next year I can see the fall out occurring they getting 21
days while me looking 28.  Hence why I think I’m better cutting my losses sooner rather that later really

Forget what are the other employees are telling you, what does your manager/HR say? 

Gives me a rough answer,  all our HR stuff is outsourced you see, you get the stupid act “Oh I’d need to speak with xxx” and then never gets back to you.  I’ve asked twice. I’m being avoided but being new it’s a balancing act between finding out and not giving them a chance to get rid of you which they can do with no warning 

stu12345_2

join a union and ask union rep or get union rep to help by asking the questions

Andy_L

ISTR that where o/t is regular, like thisFriday situation employers are obliged to include it in their holiday calculations. I think that might just be in calculating holiday pay rather than number of days accrued, although that doesn't make much difference, if you worked every Friday o/t you'd get paid more for a days holiday so could afford to take unpaid leave/not work some o/t Fridays or just have more money in your pocket

General_Grant

stu12345_2 said:

when you start a job, you accept the general terms of the job, it doesnt have to be in writing, it can be verbal, but the employer must produce a written contract within 2 months of starting.
 so your job is basically mon to friday with friday being optional.  So if you do always go in on a  friday they have to pay you 38 hrs  worth of holiday pay, cos you did the full mon to fri 38 hrs hours.

On or before the first day of work for an employer, they need to provide a written "principal" statement of the particulars of employment.  This is not a contract - it doesn't have to be signed by anyone, it simply has to cover basic terms.  

Your reference to two months is slightly out-of-date.  The two months (in which to have provided the written particulars) ended in 2020 as far as the principal statement is concerned.  It remains for the wider written statement.

Undervalued

General_Grant said:

stu12345_2 said:

when you start a job, you accept the general terms of the job, it doesnt have to be in writing, it can be verbal, but the employer must produce a written contract within 2 months of starting.
 so your job is basically mon to friday with friday being optional.  So if you do always go in on a  friday they have to pay you 38 hrs  worth of holiday pay, cos you did the full mon to fri 38 hrs hours.

On or before the first day of work for an employer, they need to provide a written "principal" statement of the particulars of employment.  This is not a contract - it doesn't have to be signed by anyone, it simply has to cover basic terms.  

Your reference to two months is slightly out-of-date.  The two months (in which to have provided the written particulars) ended in 2020 as far as the principal statement is concerned.  It remains for the wider written statement.

Indeed. However, as has been said many times on here, there is no useful remedy if they don't!

You can't take this failing, on its own, to an employment tribunal. If you have some other valid claim it can be added to it and might (at the tribunal's discretion) lead to a small uplift in any award - but usually doesn't. 

Hoenir

n1guy said:

stu12345_2 said:

why would you only want to do mon to thu and get less holiday entitlement, just do the mon to friday and get the full 38 hrs a week worth of hols, the full 28 days.  also you can get more than 28 days, as an employer has to look at the total hours worked in the  last 12 weeks, and if there O/Time, you get more holiday pay money

You’re getting near the point I am trying to make but many aren’t picking up on.  I agree with you.  The point being even with doing 38 hrs you’re not getting 28 days as the Friday they are classing as overtime and not counting as full time hours and only giving 21 days holidays.  

Your misunderstanding is not uncommon. As it's not the days that matter but the number of hours. 

If you chose to condense your 38 hour week into working Mon - Thurs. Then you always have Friday's off by default. You aren't being paid for Fridays. So why should the employer pay you for these days that you decide are annual leave days?  This would be your a financial advantage to you over other employees that remain working 38 hours over 5 days a week. 

Most employers calculate annual leave on the basis of the standard working week for all employees. Those employees working different day patterns or part time receive their holiday entitlement pro rata'd based on the hours they actually work. Employees then claim hours from their annual allowance as and when they book paid leave. 

Holiday entitlement is written into employment law. Employers are subject to periodic HMRC payroll audits part of which is to check historic employee leave records. 

housebuyer143

Hoenir said:

n1guy said:

stu12345_2 said:

why would you only want to do mon to thu and get less holiday entitlement, just do the mon to friday and get the full 38 hrs a week worth of hols, the full 28 days.  also you can get more than 28 days, as an employer has to look at the total hours worked in the  last 12 weeks, and if there O/Time, you get more holiday pay money

You’re getting near the point I am trying to make but many aren’t picking up on.  I agree with you.  The point being even with doing 38 hrs you’re not getting 28 days as the Friday they are classing as overtime and not counting as full time hours and only giving 21 days holidays.  

Your misunderstanding is not uncommon. As it's not the days that matter but the number of hours. 

If you chose to condense your 38 hour week into working Mon - Thurs. Then you always have Friday's off by default. You aren't being paid for Fridays. So why should the employer pay you for these days that you decide are annual leave days?  This would be your a financial advantage to you over other employees that remain working 38 hours over 5 days a week. 

Most employers calculate annual leave on the basis of the standard working week for all employees. Those employees working different day patterns or part time receive their holiday entitlement pro rata'd based on the hours they actually work. Employees then claim hours from their annual allowance as and when they book paid leave. 

Holiday entitlement is written into employment law. Employers are subject to periodic HMRC payroll audits part of which is to check historic employee leave records. 

I wish my old employer didn't make this assumption. All part time employees got their holiday days just as you said, as a percentage of the full timers days. So someone working 20 hours over 5 days got 14 days leave... Someone working 20 hours over 3 days got 14 days leave. 
They completely didn't get it and thought it fine I only got 2 weeks off a year. Didn't stay there long. 

Undervalued

housebuyer143 said:

Hoenir said:

n1guy said:

stu12345_2 said:

why would you only want to do mon to thu and get less holiday entitlement, just do the mon to friday and get the full 38 hrs a week worth of hols, the full 28 days.  also you can get more than 28 days, as an employer has to look at the total hours worked in the  last 12 weeks, and if there O/Time, you get more holiday pay money

You’re getting near the point I am trying to make but many aren’t picking up on.  I agree with you.  The point being even with doing 38 hrs you’re not getting 28 days as the Friday they are classing as overtime and not counting as full time hours and only giving 21 days holidays.  

Your misunderstanding is not uncommon. As it's not the days that matter but the number of hours. 

If you chose to condense your 38 hour week into working Mon - Thurs. Then you always have Friday's off by default. You aren't being paid for Fridays. So why should the employer pay you for these days that you decide are annual leave days?  This would be your a financial advantage to you over other employees that remain working 38 hours over 5 days a week. 

Most employers calculate annual leave on the basis of the standard working week for all employees. Those employees working different day patterns or part time receive their holiday entitlement pro rata'd based on the hours they actually work. Employees then claim hours from their annual allowance as and when they book paid leave. 

Holiday entitlement is written into employment law. Employers are subject to periodic HMRC payroll audits part of which is to check historic employee leave records. 

I wish my old employer didn't make this assumption. All part time employees got their holiday days just as you said, as a percentage of the full timers days. So someone working 20 hours over 5 days got 14 days leave... Someone working 20 hours over 3 days got 14 days leave. 
They completely didn't get it and thought it fine I only got 2 weeks off a year. Didn't stay there long. 

People often forget that an employer can totally dictate when an employee can and cannot take their holiday. The legal right is, for a full time employee, to have 5.6 weeks (28 days) holiday per year. This equated to not having to work for 12.07% of the days / hours they are paid for. That is all.

In the past, when holiday entitlement was lower, it wasn't uncommon for factories etc to close for two or three weeks per year and allow little if any other holiday.

It is still perfectly lawful to shut for 5.6 weeks per year and allow no other holiday - although that might make attracting and retaining staff a bit tricky!

n1guy

Undervalued said:

housebuyer143 said:

Hoenir said:

n1guy said:

stu12345_2 said:

why would you only want to do mon to thu and get less holiday entitlement, just do the mon to friday and get the full 38 hrs a week worth of hols, the full 28 days.  also you can get more than 28 days, as an employer has to look at the total hours worked in the  last 12 weeks, and if there O/Time, you get more holiday pay money

You’re getting near the point I am trying to make but many aren’t picking up on.  I agree with you.  The point being even with doing 38 hrs you’re not getting 28 days as the Friday they are classing as overtime and not counting as full time hours and only giving 21 days holidays.  

Your misunderstanding is not uncommon. As it's not the days that matter but the number of hours. 

If you chose to condense your 38 hour week into working Mon - Thurs. Then you always have Friday's off by default. You aren't being paid for Fridays. So why should the employer pay you for these days that you decide are annual leave days?  This would be your a financial advantage to you over other employees that remain working 38 hours over 5 days a week. 

Most employers calculate annual leave on the basis of the standard working week for all employees. Those employees working different day patterns or part time receive their holiday entitlement pro rata'd based on the hours they actually work. Employees then claim hours from their annual allowance as and when they book paid leave. 

Holiday entitlement is written into employment law. Employers are subject to periodic HMRC payroll audits part of which is to check historic employee leave records. 

I wish my old employer didn't make this assumption. All part time employees got their holiday days just as you said, as a percentage of the full timers days. So someone working 20 hours over 5 days got 14 days leave... Someone working 20 hours over 3 days got 14 days leave. 
They completely didn't get it and thought it fine I only got 2 weeks off a year. Didn't stay there long. 

People often forget that an employer can totally dictate when an employee can and cannot take their holiday. The legal right is, for a full time employee, to have 5.6 weeks (28 days) holiday per year. This equated to not having to work for 12.07% of the days / hours they are paid for. That is all.

In the past, when holiday entitlement was lower, it wasn't uncommon for factories etc to close for two or three weeks per year and allow little if any other holiday.

It is still perfectly lawful to shut for 5.6 weeks per year and allow no other holiday - although that might make attracting and retaining staff a bit tricky!

In smaller factories this is still the case