Contract query

FallenAngel2612

Hi all,
Ive been offered a job verbally, with email confirmation 2 days ago.  Received contract to sign with offer letter today.  I’m just feeling a bit wary…. .  I’m not asking for legal expertise obviously, just general feeling/opinion.  It all came via email with a ton of attachments need completing, reference checks, DBS checks, security checks, health screening questionnaire etc - all of which I kind of expected and am not really anticipating any major issues with.  

However, a couple of things stood out, hours were more than I had expected (not massively so, so not in itself a deal breaker).  Mostly remote working but will require some site working and given a different ‘statutory’ location - need to enquire what this means, as this is a lot further than I am prepared to travel (and much further than discussed at interview).  Also, as the first 8 weeks are ‘training’, they have stated that this will amount to training costs of £3000 which if you leave the company within 2 years, you have to reimburse them these costs.  I’ve never heard of anything like this and just wondered if anyone else has had similar terms in their employment contract?  It doesn’t stipulate if it’s just YOU decide to leave or if you are let go either.  

I’m potentially leaving a Job with an employer I’ve been with for 15+ years, (for valid reasons) with the associated security etc.  I’m just a bit nervous I guess.  Any advice welcome.

Grumpy_chap

FallenAngel2612 said:

Hi all,
Ive been offered a job verbally, with email confirmation 2 days ago.  Received contract to sign with offer letter today.  I’m just feeling a bit wary…. .  I’m not asking for legal expertise obviously, just general feeling/opinion.  It all came via email with a ton of attachments need completing, reference checks, DBS checks, security checks, health screening questionnaire etc - all of which I kind of expected and am not really anticipating any major issues with.  

However, a couple of things stood out, hours were more than I had expected (not massively so, so not in itself a deal breaker).  Mostly remote working but will require some site working and given a different ‘statutory’ location - need to enquire what this means, as this is a lot further than I am prepared to travel (and much further than discussed at interview).  Also, as the first 8 weeks are ‘training’, they have stated that this will amount to training costs of £3000 which if you leave the company within 2 years, you have to reimburse them these costs.  I’ve never heard of anything like this and just wondered if anyone else has had similar terms in their employment contract?  It doesn’t stipulate if it’s just YOU decide to leave or if you are let go either.  

I’m potentially leaving a Job with an employer I’ve been with for 15+ years, (for valid reasons) with the associated security etc.  I’m just a bit nervous I guess.  Any advice welcome.

What sector / type of business is the potential new employer?  That will give an insight as to whether the referencing etc are reasonable.  The items you mention don't sound that unusual to me.

What is the "training"?
Is it some qualification / certificate / transferable skill that will make you more employable elsewhere?
Is it simply their training in their procedures?
It is not unusual to have recovery of training costs if you leave prematurely but, if that training is just their processes and no use elsewhere I'd be inclined to stay put for the time being and look elsewhere for the next move.

oldernonethewiser

Yes companies can write a contract than entitles them to recover training costs.  There are caveats to what all that might mean in reality but it is not uncommon.

Hours more than expected?  Were hours discussed?  How much more are they than what you thought?  Are these hours flexible?

You do need to clarify the "statutory" location as if this is not agreed before starting work it can have consequences further down the line. Do you feel you were misled at the interview?

HampshireH

Usually the statutory location or base is where you commute would be to.

So if you were to be claiming mileage for your travels you wouldn't be able to claim you commute miles. If this is much further away its definitely worth checking their expenses policy before you sign.

A lot of companies have a leave within x years and you pay back the training.

As above if that's induction training with no qualification or certificate that's going to benefit you elsewhere I'd be reluctant.  2 years is a long time if you don't like the new job (though usually the amount to be paid back decreases at intervals such a 12months =50% etc) 

DullGreyGuy

FallenAngel2612 said:
Also, as the first 8 weeks are ‘training’, they have stated that this will amount to training costs of £3000 which if you leave the company within 2 years, you have to reimburse them these costs.  I’ve never heard of anything like this and just wondered if anyone else has had similar terms in their employment contract?  It doesn’t stipulate if it’s just YOU decide to leave or if you are let go either.  

As long as it's in your contract and agreed in advance it's permissible. It's a fairly common clause when in relation to external professional skills/qualification courses - ie things that are useful for your job but not necessarily strictly necessary however will make you more employable in the future.

Its fairly uncommon for basic internal courses or the normal induction of how they do things, software they use but it really depends on what you are doing for a living, if this is anyway a stretch role, if the induction does include some more formal training that gives you transferable skills. 

So if its in the contract its ok, if its a voluntary training it can simply be deducted, if its mandatory training it can still be deducted but must not then take you below the national minimum wage. It also depends on if you leave voluntarily or let go for you conduct - in which NMW doesn't apply to voluntary training whereas if you are let go for another reason then again NMW applies. 

In most places I've been its been tapered so leave in 6 months of completing the training and repay 100%, leave in 6-12 months 75%, leave in 12-18 months 50% and in 18-24 months 25%

Unwell2023

Could you check the extra hours aren't a mistake? 

I recently needed to query a contract received as it was minus nearly 6 hours, turns out it was just a error made. Phew. 

Marcon

FallenAngel2612 said:

Also, as the first 8 weeks are ‘training’, they have stated that this will amount to training costs of £3000 which if you leave the company within 2 years, you have to reimburse them these costs.  I’ve never heard of anything like this and just wondered if anyone else has had similar terms in their employment contract?  It doesn’t stipulate if it’s just YOU decide to leave or if you are let go either.  

I’m potentially leaving a Job with an employer I’ve been with for 15+ years, (for valid reasons) with the associated security etc.  I’m just a bit nervous I guess.  Any advice welcome.

Training costs of £3K incurred in 8 weeks...that's quite hefty, especially if the training doesn't lead to any sort of formal and transferable qualification. I'd certainly be asking more questions about what exactly is covered in the training and exactly what circumstances would lead to requiring repayment.

Undervalued

FallenAngel2612 said:

Hi all,
Ive been offered a job verbally, with email confirmation 2 days ago.  Received contract to sign with offer letter today.  I’m just feeling a bit wary…. .  I’m not asking for legal expertise obviously, just general feeling/opinion.  It all came via email with a ton of attachments need completing, reference checks, DBS checks, security checks, health screening questionnaire etc - all of which I kind of expected and am not really anticipating any major issues with.  

However, a couple of things stood out, hours were more than I had expected (not massively so, so not in itself a deal breaker).  Mostly remote working but will require some site working and given a different ‘statutory’ location - need to enquire what this means, as this is a lot further than I am prepared to travel (and much further than discussed at interview).  Also, as the first 8 weeks are ‘training’, they have stated that this will amount to training costs of £3000 which if you leave the company within 2 years, you have to reimburse them these costs.  I’ve never heard of anything like this and just wondered if anyone else has had similar terms in their employment contract?  It doesn’t stipulate if it’s just YOU decide to leave or if you are let go either.  

I’m potentially leaving a Job with an employer I’ve been with for 15+ years, (for valid reasons) with the associated security etc.  I’m just a bit nervous I guess.  Any advice welcome.

Even with a specific agreement in place (which there has to be) legally they can only recover reasonable training costs which also would normally decrease over time.

So if you left immediately after the training they could possibly recover the full £3K, providing that was actually a fair cost for the training. If you left after say a year then they might be able to recover about half that amount. And so on.

That said, they very much have the whip hand as you can't stop them from deducting what they feel you owe from your final pay, leaving you to sue them if you feel it to be legally unreasonable!

FallenAngel2612

Hi all,

thanks for all your comments.  Had some clarification re the training - if you leave straight after it’s full reimbursement.  If you leave after 1 year - still the same, if you leave after 2 years, 50% of cost.  I don’t think it leads to any nationally recognised qualification though so not sure how valuable it would be to anyone else. I’m still a bit unsure about this.

When I’ve read all the different clauses as well, there’s things such as ‘you agree that if you leave the company, for a period of 6 months you will not be permitted to work for any client of the company, potential client of the company, including working for a service provider who provides the same or similar services to any client of the company.  ‘Non compete, post employment conditions’.   

After the initial probation period of 12 weeks, employees have to give 10 weeks notice to leave but the employer only has to give 4.  

It may all be normal contractual stuff etc but I’m definitely feeling on the fence about this one now.  

Martin_the_Unjust

There are a lot of red flags in there, I’d be extremely cautious 

FallenAngel2612

That’s what I’m thinking,  there’s a lot of hoops to jump through that all benefit the employer but Im seeing less benefits to me.  They sold it all quite well to me in the interview about all the training and learning they provide so it all seemed quite attractive.  

I also don’t like the feeling that an employer can still have control over you like that when you’re not even working for them anymore.  I mean I understand that they have to take steps to protect their business interests and such, but some of it just seems a little extreme.

I was feeling really positive, but after looking more closely….. I guess the devil really is in the detail.