Ryanair refuse to compensate for wrecked child seat

GrubbyGirl_2

tacpot12 said:

If you have home insurance, check to see if you have legal expeneses cover. If you do, call the Legal Helpline provided buy your insurer, and ask for their help. They may write a letter to Ryanair, who may recondsider when their lawyers see the letter and give them legal advice; but the advice to Ryanair that they would win in court. You might ask the Helpline about suing Ryanair and the Airport Authority on the same claim  - the Airport might also put pressure on Ryanair to settle. 

I think that the fact that the seat was in a special carrier gives your claim more weight than most. 

I agree they would win if they defended the claim in court but chances are a small claim such as this they are unlikely to waste time defending so the OP could get a default judgement.  It's a risk though that more money making the claim would be lost

tollhouse423

Thanks for the advice so far, Ryanair have provided a final response that they will compensate the grand sum of £0.  

Whilst I appreciate there is a depreciated value, I’m amazed this is allowed to be honest. At the end of the day I’m contacted with Ryanair, their subcontractor (baggage handler) has caused damage, and I have to shoulder the burden and cost to get me back to my previous position. And because it’s a car seat, it has to be a new one.

I’m now attempting a travel insurance claim to see if I can get anything through that route.

For the small claims, I read the comments that they would most likely win. Why is that, what legal precedent is there that suggests Ryanair are not liable to replace or compensate under these circumstances?

DullGreyGuy

tollhouse423 said:

Thanks for the advice so far, Ryanair have provided a final response that they will compensate the grand sum of £0.  

Whilst I appreciate there is a depreciated value, I’m amazed this is allowed to be honest. At the end of the day I’m contacted with Ryanair, their subcontractor (baggage handler) has caused damage, and I have to shoulder the burden and cost to get me back to my previous position. And because it’s a car seat, it has to be a new one.

I’m now attempting a travel insurance claim to see if I can get anything through that route.

For the small claims, I read the comments that they would most likely win. Why is that, what legal precedent is there that suggests Ryanair are not liable to replace or compensate under these circumstances?

When was the flight? Did you get a Property Irregularity Report when you found it was damaged? When was the claim submitted to RyanAir? 

The Montreal Convention 1999 creates the liability for damaged checked baggage subject to the usual exclusions on if there was an issue with the baggage itself. Like most liability, rather than insurance, you are entitled to indemnification rather than new for old which would mean effectively how much you could have sold it for immediately prior to the incident (or how much it'd cost to buy a replacement of the same age/wear etc). But you yourself say there is no value in a secondhand carseat and so you are effectively agreeing with them.

Note that there are strict timelimits on making the airline aware of the damage under Montreal. 

born_again

To be fair to Ryanair here. It is not their staff that load or unload the planes. It is 3rd party companies that provide the service.

screech_78

There is no law around selling secondhand car seats. Guidance maybe, but it’s certainly not illegal to buy or sell a secondhand seat. 

Problem you have is that by claiming the full cost of a replacement, it would most likely be classed as betterment. 

tollhouse423

born_again said:

To be fair to Ryanair here. It is not their staff that load or unload the planes. It is 3rd party companies that provide the service.

No they didn't directly damage the seat, their sub-contractor damaged it.  But my contract is with Ryanair, they are the company I have to deal with, and they are the ones refusing to play ball and put me back in the position I was prior to contracting with them.  

screech_78 said:

There is no law around selling secondhand car seats. Guidance maybe, but it’s certainly not illegal to buy or sell a secondhand seat. 

Problem you have is that by claiming the full cost of a replacement, it would most likely be classed as betterment. 

No there is no law, but because I cannot guarantee the safety of the device the guidance is very strong and is why insurance companies ALWAYS replace car seats with a brand new one, irrespective of the age of the one that was in the accident.  

I'm also fully aware that we're talking about insurance vs contract liability, but at the end of the day I am now in a worse off position, and the only safe way of getting me back to my previous position is to replace a new car seat.  Ryanair's position is that the age means the car seat has £0 value, but unless i can find someone giving away a free car seat (who's history is unknown), how exactly am I mean to get back to my previous position without any form of 'betterment'?

DullGreyGuy

(Removed by Forum Team).

You will find plenty of complaints on here from people that have had new luggage, ones been damaged/lost and the airline insist on providing a replacement rather than cash. One just recently as they had a matching set and the one on offer neither is part of the set nor comes in an even vaguely similar colour. 

1st Party Insurance is different, you have a contract that says what you are entitled to and if you look at Direct Line's Car policy for example it states explicitly they will replace on a new for old basis. If you look in the third party section there is no mirror promise for the person you went into the back of. There its that they will indemnify you and cover your legal liability. 

Courts cannot perform magic, they cannot repair an unrepairable item nor find one that is 4 years old and has no prior owners other than you. So they do what they normally do, settle on its pre-accident value, ultimately even when they do say repair costs have to be covered its still as a proxy for the devaluation of the item. 

Having a brand new item would be betterment, putting you in a better situation than you were before, which you aren't entitled to. 

Personally don't have kids so never given the old car seat much thought for holidays but not sure I'd ever trust one not to have been dropped, bashed and crushed having seen what they do with baggage even if the outer bag looks ok

Grumpy_chap

I totally understand the OP's comment about the car seat being 4yo and not being comfortable with a used car seat because of the risk that it fails to have the level of integrity that it should.

Out of interest, how long would it be before the OP had to buy a new car seat in any case for the next "stage" reflecting the child growing?
That is, obviously, a question in isolation and assumes the OP does not have a younger child that might have made use of the same car seat later.

tollhouse423

DullGreyGuy said:

You will find plenty of complaints on here from people that have had new luggage, ones been damaged/lost and the airline insist on providing a replacement rather than cash. One just recently as they had a matching set and the one on offer neither is part of the set nor comes in an even vaguely similar colour. 

1st Party Insurance is different, you have a contract that says what you are entitled to and if you look at Direct Line's Car policy for example it states explicitly they will replace on a new for old basis. If you look in the third party section there is no mirror promise for the person you went into the back of. There its that they will indemnify you and cover your legal liability. 

Courts cannot perform magic, they cannot repair an unrepairable item nor find one that is 4 years old and has no prior owners other than you. So they do what they normally do, settle on its pre-accident value, ultimately even when they do say repair costs have to be covered its still as a proxy for the devaluation of the item. 

Having a brand new item would be betterment, putting you in a better situation than you were before, which you aren't entitled to. 

Personally don't have kids so never given the old car seat much thought for holidays but not sure I'd ever trust one not to have been dropped, bashed and crushed having seen what they do with baggage even if the outer bag looks ok

I do hear what you’re saying, but I still can’t accept that the airline (and their subcontracted parties) can damage an item and just say ‘oops sorry about that’ and that be the end of it. Seems very unfair. A car seat is very different to other luggage as it’s a safety device, but it feels like I’ve fallen into a black hole of legality. 

Anyhow, I’ve now sought professional advice so I’ll see what comes of that.

turnitround

Surely it is going to cost you more for professional advice than the seat is worth.