Really? Pipe clips

Fen1

Right. Now the awkward bit. How to proceed with plumber no.1.

I have had advice from plumber no.2. He is outside the geographical area so has no vested interest in doing the work himself. No.2 says the work isn't tidy; he would have put clips onto a piece of wood, then fixed that piece onto the joists.

I am going to get other plumbers in as well to review ( I need further advice about upgrading my heating, anyway.  The upgrading may happen now or in a year or two, depending on finances).

I know - thanks to you lovely people - that I could do the job myself. But I AM SERIOUSLY P*SS*D OFF. I don't trust him to fix it - after all, he left the job like this. What are my options?


 

ThisIsWeird

Fen1 said:

1. On the run of pipe: Normal length of pipe; insulation secured with tape.

2. At the joist: short length of pipe at the joist; supporting clip; jacket of insulation over the clip; jacket taped to insulation on the long runs on either side to make a continuous sausage roll of insulation.

No exposed piping, no exposed clip.

Yes????

Yes.
If you look at FFHillBilly's clips, it looks as tho' they stand off from the bottom of the joist enough to allow the insulation to slide over the pipe so only the clip is uncovered.
The clip is - what? - 10mm wide? So cut a 10mm slice of insulation, and cut it through one side (where the part cut already is) to make a 'C'. Fit over the clip, and tape.

ThisIsWeird

Fen1 said:

Right. Now the awkward bit. How to proceed with plumber no.1.

I have had advice from plumber no.2. He is outside the geographical area so has no vested interest in doing the work himself. No.2 says the work isn't tidy; he would have put clips onto a piece of wood, then fixed that piece onto the joists.

I am going to get other plumbers in as well to review ( I need further advice about upgrading my heating, anyway.  The upgrading may happen now or in a year or two, depending on finances).

I know - thanks to you lovely people - that I could do the job myself. But I AM SERIOUSLY P*SS*D OFF. I don't trust him to fix it - after all, he left the job like this. What are my options?


 

Yes, it's poor. But it is a trivial matter in terms of the work required task to make it good. And there's nothing to suggest that there's anything else amiss with his work because of this, so I wouldn't worry.
Tbh, if he'd replaced the floorboards, you'd be none the wiser. Chances are the tie-wraps will last years - but undetermined - and the lost energy from the unlagged pipes will be an unknown addition to your bills. You'd likely just live with it in ignorance.
But, it's poor. A lazy and untrustworthy way to secure pipes long term, and shocking to not lag pipes especially these days.
Even plumber 2 sounds as tho' he needs to be introduced to Hillbilly's clips :-) Why would you bother cutting separate blocks of wood to hold standard pipe clips, when these beauts exist?! That's a no-brainer.

What to do? Have you contacted P1 yet to ask why no insulation? And to ask what warranty he'll provide for his 'clips'? Just tell him a friend has seen the work and is very concerned - they are 'certain' that both insulation and reliable clips should be used. Give the guy a chance to say 'ok'.
I cannot comment on whether he should lag for no extra cost, as I don't know what his quote was like. I would suggest, tho', that lagging is standard, and should be automatically included in all such quotes; it's simply never an 'option'!
(Which void are these pipes in?)
So, what was his quote like? Who is this guy? (You imply you sort of know him, and came personally recommended?) Who recommended him?
See what he says. 

Fen1

ThisIsWeird. Thank you for verifying my words-of-one-syllable approach. I feel like a complete numpty with these things.

I am hoping to have a third opinion this week, as, yes P2's suggestion seems definitely low tech and extra faffy. He didn't say anything about insulation, even when I asked him.  I'm hoping that P3 will give me a definitive answer.


More photos to follow of other work that P1 has done. Those photos may illustrate why I am so upset. I can't upload now, but they are doozies.

ThisIsWeird

I look forward

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said: - and the lost energy from the unlagged pipes will be an unknown addition to your bills.

The heat loss from an uninsulated pipe can be quantified and compared to one that is lagged - The calculations are not particularly complex, but to save you the trouble, here is a blog post on just that - https://www.olwg.co.uk/post/a-lag-in-the-system

In a nutshell, a 15mm pipe running under a ventilated floor with a flow temp of 65°C and an ambient of 5°C, you would lose 28.1Wh per metre. With 14mm of foam pipe lagging, this drops to 7.81Wh per metre. So multiply the numbers by how ever much pipe there is, then multiply by the number of hours the heating system is running. Divide by 1000 to get the result in KWh

ThisIsWeird

And then convert it into £.

Risteard

FreeBear said:

ThisIsWeird said: - and the lost energy from the unlagged pipes will be an unknown addition to your bills.

The heat loss from an uninsulated pipe can be quantified and compared to one that is lagged - The calculations are not particularly complex, but to save you the trouble, here is a blog post on just that - https://www.olwg.co.uk/post/a-lag-in-the-system

In a nutshell, a 15mm pipe running under a ventilated floor with a flow temp of 65°C and an ambient of 5°C, you would lose 28.1Wh per metre. With 14mm of foam pipe lagging, this drops to 7.81Wh per metre. So multiply the numbers by how ever much pipe there is, then multiply by the number of hours the heating system is running. Divide by 1000 to get the result in KWh

That should read kWh - the "k" shouldn't be capitalised.