HR/Manager Issue - Grievance [Merged]

400ixl

No need for two threads on the same topic https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6477102/hr-manager-issue-grievance#latest

MattMattMattUK

Trooper21 said:

@ turnitround

Sometimes, standing upto workplace bullies means it stops happening to other people. If I have to suffer the consequences of them deciding to work outside of their policies…they can differ being made to feel uncomfortable about it.

The apology is meaningless when it’s not even evidenced or acknowledged in a 2 page letter that conveniently leaves out the fact they haven’t followed their own policies.

It doesn’t affect my job as I am out and about thankfully but it does affect how I feel as an employee and it bothers me that this is how I’m being treated.

It does not appear from anything that you have written that there is an issue with "workplace bullies", merely that a manager imperfectly followed a sickness process and you have taken umbrage at that.

Trooper21 said:

TTO contract. Currently under stage 1 sickness review (which my employer have not followed their own policy on).

I’ve been notified of my last and final meeting and only realised before Christmas that it falls this week, when I am still on holiday.

The while experience has been smattered with incompetence and I’m at the stage now where I massively resent having to decline a formal meeting when it has been scheduled outside of my contractual obligations-deliberately.

WWYD?

Rep said to write to them with my concerns, but so what they re-issue the meeting? Point out their incompetence? Or let it continue and see where the chips lie when they realise?

I’m so stressed about it, it is really eating into my life outside of work.

You seem set on making this into something that it is not, you are having a huge overreaction to an employer large following standard procedure. Dial back the emotion and hyperbole and look at things rationally. You do not need to "point out their incompetence", you do not need to "resent" things, at least not unless you want to be managed out and not given a reference. 

You politely point out that you are on annual leave on the date they have proposed for the eating and ask for it to be rescheduled for a suitable date. You then attend the meeting and provided you are entirely reasonable I suspect it will not be an issue in the slightest, just a formality.

Trooper21 said:

I’ve worked for them for coming upto 3 years.

The latest update being that the final meeting has been scheduled outside of my contractual obligated weeks, so in my holiday.

I am just so over the level of incompetence  from managers paid a lot of money and get this aspect of their role, so wrong.

Also, thread update. I challenged contents of outcome letter and said the letter did NOT reflect the concerns I’d raised…the response was HR told me to do it and your concerns are noted (on an email).

I need to leave.

I suspect your employer may agree, both your threads seem to be a huge overreaction to something that sits in the minor to non-issue range. 

Brie

Be factual and blunt in any reply to an invite to a meeting.

"On X date I was told this and then went on holiday.  As you are aware this is from X to Y.  I've become aware that a meeting has been organised for me to attend between these dates so have take no consideration that I am on holiday, am unable to attend and also unable to organise someone to accompany me.  I respectfully ask, as is my right, for you to reschedule and give me a minimum of 7 days following me return from holiday."

Put together a similarly blunt and factual line of events to explain, from your point of view, what has happened that has led to this point.  Outline what you understand their procedure to be and where you think they haven't followed it.  Ensure you have someone (union rep, colleague, suitable manager) to attend the meeting to support you, maybe take notes.  Ensure it is not a family member.  

I've had notes like this available to read out (so I don't forget anything or get too emotional) and can also be provided as a record of what you have said so you know that they have received the information you are trying to convey.  

Good luck!  Always difficult to get through these things....

Marcon

Trooper21 said:

TTO contract. Currently under stage 1 sickness review (which my employer have not followed their own policy on).

I’ve been notified of my last and final meeting and only realised before Christmas that it falls this week, when I am still on holiday.

Why wait until now to raise that point? It damages your position for not raising it promptly.

Trooper21 said:

The while experience has been smattered with incompetence and I’m at the stage now where I massively resent having to decline a formal meeting when it has been scheduled outside of my contractual obligations-deliberately.

WWYD?

Rep said to write to them with my concerns, but so what they re-issue the meeting? Point out their incompetence? Or let it continue and see where the chips lie when they realise?

I’m so stressed about it, it is really eating into my life outside of work.

Accept the meeting if you're not actually physically away on holiday. If it's having such a negative impact, why would you want to delay?

You do seem prone to massively overreacting to things, as others have pointed out: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6477102/hr-manager-issue-grievance#latest

EnPointe

Trooper21 said:

I've recently hit a trigger for absences- 4 in a year due to Covid. All fine and fair enough with hitting trigger etc.

My manager has not advised me properly of outcomes to formal meetings, as in a potential referral to OT, or review periods.

So I have found myself being subject to meeting outcomes that she should have discussed with me at meetings (as per council policy) and didn't. A 6 month review period with no context as to why this is a reasonable outcome.

I have objected and emailed and she has only acknowledged it once in a meeting which she apologised for but did not say why she had not follwoed policy.

I have an email trail of my informal attempts at accountability.

However as I am receiving letters stating about my employment being affected if I hit further triggers, but don't contain any reference to her neglect to advise properly on policy, I feel I should object.

I am going to raise a grievance - but if any legal/Hr bods can sort of shed light on the strength of my claim.

Can I refuse to be subjected to a policy that wasn't discussed at the right point within it's own policy? It's local gov if that helps.

Do HR have to follow their own policies. What happens if not? Tribunal?

a Manager cannot refer to an Occupational Therapist , do you perhaps mean Occupational health or  you  self referring / your GP referring you to a local NHS Community / Mental Health 'vocational' team    as some  community / MH  trusts do have  teams  who have this focus in supporting   services tol  to remain in gainful employment. 

the  typical outcome from a Stage Sickness review  is that you will remain on stage 1  for the periods specified in the Capability nad attendance policies  of the organisation, this is typically  3 - 6 months  , if you are off sick again during that period it may be escalated  and at stage 2 often a warning is given  and at stage 3 a final warning  given  and/or  capability  process  introduced if it is clear there is an  work related  angle to the absence . 

Have you actually sought a referral to Occupational Health ? 

what  do you  beleive your grievance to be ?

Trooper21

Brie said:

Be factual and blunt in any reply to an invite to a meeting.

"On X date I was told this and then went on holiday.  As you are aware this is from X to Y.  I've become aware that a meeting has been organised for me to attend between these dates so have take no consideration that I am on holiday, am unable to attend and also unable to organise someone to accompany me.  I respectfully ask, as is my right, for you to reschedule and give me a minimum of 7 days following me return from holiday."

Put together a similarly blunt and factual line of events to explain, from your point of view, what has happened that has led to this point.  Outline what you understand their procedure to be and where you think they haven't followed it.  Ensure you have someone (union rep, colleague, suitable manager) to attend the meeting to support you, maybe take notes.  Ensure it is not a family member.  

I've had notes like this available to read out (so I don't forget anything or get too emotional) and can also be provided as a record of what you have said so you know that they have received the information you are trying to convey.  

Good luck!  Always difficult to get through these things....

Thank you. I have done this.

Trooper21

EnPointe said:

Trooper21 said:

I've recently hit a trigger for absences- 4 in a year due to Covid. All fine and fair enough with hitting trigger etc.

My manager has not advised me properly of outcomes to formal meetings, as in a potential referral to OT, or review periods.

So I have found myself being subject to meeting outcomes that she should have discussed with me at meetings (as per council policy) and didn't. A 6 month review period with no context as to why this is a reasonable outcome.

I have objected and emailed and she has only acknowledged it once in a meeting which she apologised for but did not say why she had not follwoed policy.

I have an email trail of my informal attempts at accountability.

However as I am receiving letters stating about my employment being affected if I hit further triggers, but don't contain any reference to her neglect to advise properly on policy, I feel I should object.

I am going to raise a grievance - but if any legal/Hr bods can sort of shed light on the strength of my claim.

Can I refuse to be subjected to a policy that wasn't discussed at the right point within it's own policy? It's local gov if that helps.

Do HR have to follow their own policies. What happens if not? Tribunal?

a Manager cannot refer to an Occupational Therapist , do you perhaps mean Occupational health or  you  self referring / your GP referring you to a local NHS Community / Mental Health 'vocational' team    as some  community / MH  trusts do have  teams  who have this focus in supporting   services tol  to remain in gainful employment. 

the  typical outcome from a Stage Sickness review  is that you will remain on stage 1  for the periods specified in the Capability nad attendance policies  of the organisation, this is typically  3 - 6 months  , if you are off sick again during that period it may be escalated  and at stage 2 often a warning is given  and at stage 3 a final warning  given  and/or  capability  process  introduced if it is clear there is an  work related  angle to the absence . 

Have you actually sought a referral to Occupational Health ? 

what  do you  beleive your grievance to be ?

I can't obviously put ALL the details here as it would be outing. Yes some of the outcomes where a) a review b)occupational heath c)something else. None of these were discussed at all.

My grievance is that my employer has not followed their own policy. Which some have described as 'imperfect' when the reality is, it is an issue I believe for an employer to not do that. There is more that I am not putting on here simply for people to tell me I am massively over reacting or making a big deal out of nothing.

I believe policies and procedures do matter, as does clear and transparent communication with staff about such issues.

Trooper21

MattMattMattUK said:

Trooper21 said:

@ turnitround

Sometimes, standing upto workplace bullies means it stops happening to other people. If I have to suffer the consequences of them deciding to work outside of their policies…they can differ being made to feel uncomfortable about it.

The apology is meaningless when it’s not even evidenced or acknowledged in a 2 page letter that conveniently leaves out the fact they haven’t followed their own policies.

It doesn’t affect my job as I am out and about thankfully but it does affect how I feel as an employee and it bothers me that this is how I’m being treated.

It does not appear from anything that you have written that there is an issue with "workplace bullies", merely that a manager imperfectly followed a sickness process and you have taken umbrage at that.

Trooper21 said:

TTO contract. Currently under stage 1 sickness review (which my employer have not followed their own policy on).

I’ve been notified of my last and final meeting and only realised before Christmas that it falls this week, when I am still on holiday.

The while experience has been smattered with incompetence and I’m at the stage now where I massively resent having to decline a formal meeting when it has been scheduled outside of my contractual obligations-deliberately.

WWYD?

Rep said to write to them with my concerns, but so what they re-issue the meeting? Point out their incompetence? Or let it continue and see where the chips lie when they realise?

I’m so stressed about it, it is really eating into my life outside of work.

You seem set on making this into something that it is not, you are having a huge overreaction to an employer large following standard procedure. Dial back the emotion and hyperbole and look at things rationally. You do not need to "point out their incompetence", you do not need to "resent" things, at least not unless you want to be managed out and not given a reference. 

You politely point out that you are on annual leave on the date they have proposed for the eating and ask for it to be rescheduled for a suitable date. You then attend the meeting and provided you are entirely reasonable I suspect it will not be an issue in the slightest, just a formality.

Trooper21 said:

I’ve worked for them for coming upto 3 years.

The latest update being that the final meeting has been scheduled outside of my contractual obligated weeks, so in my holiday.

I am just so over the level of incompetence  from managers paid a lot of money and get this aspect of their role, so wrong.

Also, thread update. I challenged contents of outcome letter and said the letter did NOT reflect the concerns I’d raised…the response was HR told me to do it and your concerns are noted (on an email).

I need to leave.

I suspect your employer may agree, both your threads seem to be a huge overreaction to something that sits in the minor to non-issue range. 

That would be because this is a forum, and I don't have the capacity to evidence every assertion all of my statements here to be dissected and approved about my workplace or my understanding of them.

A manager did not imperfectly manage a sickness situation, she did not follow the policy at all - and legally you are supposed to follow your own policies. You are supposed to have transparency about how you communicate these things with employees and I happen to think that matters.

HR is a huge aspect of any managers role and I happen to think that at this level, there should be more competence displayed and actually acknowledgements of when it doesn't go right for employees when they raise it as a concern.

 This is a snippet of the issue an the way I have been treated when I have tried to talk to my manager about my concerns.

I am allowed to come onto a forum and try to get some advice on what I feel to be a frustrating issue, even if you think it is an over reaction or that because I have DARED to voice my concerns, my employer must be desperate to get rid of me. How very 1950s.

I believe companies following their own policies is not a minor to non issue. There are whistleblowing policies for this reason.

Trooper21

400ixl said:

No need for two threads on the same topic https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6477102/hr-manager-issue-grievance#latest

There had been some time inbetween and I couldn't remember which forum I'd posted on.

Are you a moderator?