LPA

To fall foul of deprivation of assets:

"The local authority must show that you knew you may need care and 
support in the future when you carried out this action. It is therefore an 
evidence-based test of both foreseeability and intention"

If I preemptively wrote a will or completed and LPA for health and finances would the LA consider that as "I knew I may need cate and support in the future"
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  • marcia_
    marcia_ Posts: 1,488
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    Kirkmain said:
    To fall foul of deprivation of assets:

    "The local authority must show that you knew you may need care and 
    support in the future when you carried out this action. It is therefore an 
    evidence-based test of both foreseeability and intention"

    If I preemptively wrote a will or completed and LPA for health and finances would the LA consider that as "I knew I may need cate and support in the future"
     I would say yes, not so much the will but the LPA 
  • Albermarle
    Albermarle Posts: 21,067
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    Kirkmain said:
    To fall foul of deprivation of assets:

    "The local authority must show that you knew you may need care and 
    support in the future when you carried out this action. It is therefore an 
    evidence-based test of both foreseeability and intention"

    If I preemptively wrote a will or completed and LPA for health and finances would the LA consider that as "I knew I may need cate and support in the future"
    I would say no as the usual advice is to write a will and have a LPA in place many years before you are ever likely to need them. It is an indication of sensible future planning only.
    I do not see how you can not write a will pre emptively !

    However if the LA was suspicious that you had been moving assets to avoid care costs, then a very recent will or LPA may increase their suspicions and prompt them to look deeper into the situation anyway.


  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 45,809
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    I don't see how a will, recent or otherwise, can play any part in assessing whether or not deprivation of assets was being considered ...
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  • Keep_pedalling
    Keep_pedalling Posts: 16,162
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    edited 24 September 2023 at 6:21PM
    No!

    You have made several threads about DOA and IHT and people who worry about one of those don’t have to worry about the other. Rather than keep asking random questions with no context perhaps you could actually tell us what your financial position is and what you are trying to achieve so that we could actually provide a useful response.
  • No!

    You have made several threads about DOA and IHT and people who worry about one of those don’t have to worry about the other. Rather than keep asking random questions with no context perhaps you could actually tell us what your financial position is and what you are trying to achieve so that we could actually provide a useful response.

    My estate is worth £1.8million. Combination of BTL investments (held personally, not through a company) pension, petty cash and jewelly, gold bullion. Home I live in is only worth £400k. I have worked hard and saved up for this. I would like for my bloodline to keep as much as possible, if not all of this. I don't see how its fair that those who haven't worked as hard as I have or invested savally or skimped and saved the way I have done all my life will get their care for free should they need it. Wheras someone like me who has paid loads of tax, sacrifing free time and time with my children and my parents, will have to pay from my estate until there is virtually nothing left to pass on to my family.

    So I want to find a way to spend or pass on my assets on in such a way that means i don't have to pay IHT or care and get it on the state like those who never worked as hard as ai did. sunak has floated abolishing IHT altogether which will make my life much less stressful, BUT the chances of the Torys still being in power in a few years is slim to zero. And Comrade Starmar and Raynor believe working hard and having money makes me evil and I should have my money taken from me and distributed by the state.
  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 45,809
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    Kirkmain said:
    So I want to find a way to spend or pass on my assets on in such a way that means i don't have to pay IHT or care and get it on the state like those who never worked as hard as ai did. sunak has floated abolishing IHT altogether which will make my life much less stressful, BUT the chances of the Torys still being in power in a few years is slim to zero. And Comrade Starmar and Raynor believe working hard and having money makes me evil and I should have my money taken from me and distributed by the state.
    Please, before you pursue this more seriously, take a look at the options for residential care which will accept what your local authority is willing to pay without any further contribution. There may be a residential home on every street where you live, but many of them will require residents to pay more. 

    Also consider how likely it is that you will need such care, and whether there is anything you can do to mitigate those risks - keeping healthy in mind and body. 

    Then speak to your loved ones and check what they would want for you. If they want to keep as many pennies as they can for themselves, at the risk of you being in an inconvenient location, with limited activities, frankly they don't deserve to inherit a penny from you. 

    Or maybe they'll take you in themselves, and sacrifice health and livelihood to ensure you are properly cared for when you are unable to look after yourself. 

    Between us, DH and I have lost 3 of our 4 parents. Until now, no-one's needed residential care, but we would gladly have seen them spend every penny of 'our inheritance' to be comfortable and safe had that been necessary. The final survivor is currently in a care home and we're waiting for the financial assessment now: I don't want a penny of what they scrimped and saved over the years if it reduces their levels of comfort and care. 

    No-one seizes your assets. With an estate that size, you'd have to live in a very expensive care home for a very long time (most don't live more than 2 years) to be expected to use all your assets. 

    I don't think you're evil for having money, or even for wanting to pass it on to your survivors. Having money while you're in good health gives you options: those options remain open to you if you eventually need help, either with home or residential care. 
    Signature removed for peace of mind
  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 14,384
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    Kirkmain said:
    To fall foul of deprivation of assets:

    "The local authority must show that you knew you may need care and 
    support in the future when you carried out this action. It is therefore an 
    evidence-based test of both foreseeability and intention"

    If I preemptively wrote a will or completed and LPA for health and finances would the LA consider that as "I knew I may need cate and support in the future"
    Everyone can assume that they will, at some point, cease to continue living.  A Will is there for when that event arrives.  You, personally, will not need care and support by the time the Will comes into effect.
    Hence, pre-emptively writing a Will is clearly not DoA.

    An LPA is a prudent step to take but does not necessarily mean that you can foresee needing care.  It might be considered in the same vein as an insurance policy.  I do not foresee that my house will ever incur subsidence but I have buildings insurance that includes subsidence risk.

    Kirkmain said:

    My estate is worth £1.8million. Home I live in is only worth £400k. 

    So I want to find a way to spend or pass on my assets on in such a way that means i don't have to pay IHT or care and get it on the state 
    There are two parts here.

    IHT. 
    Assuming there is, or was, a spouse, your IHT threshold might be around the £million.  You could gift £800k so that will leave you with £600k of spendable assets and £400k principal private residence.  With that level of residual estate, DoA is not going to come into play as a factor.  That meets your aim of passing something on to your family and you can see the joy they gain from the assets by gifting that while alive.

    DoA. 
    If you give everything away so that you can get care on the state, that would clearly be DoA as you have stated yourself that is the intention.
    However, as you stated, you have worked hard and made sacrifices to reach the position you are in.  Why would you not want to spend the fruits of that on enjoying the best final years that you can in a care home that you are pleased to call home?  The alternative would be some undesirable and basic grubby "over-my-dead-body" wherever they had a place and willing to accept the rate that the LA will fund.
    I know which I would prefer if I had the choice.
  • With £1,8M you would have to be stark raving bonkers to want to place your care in the hands of a cash strapped LA and with that starting point disposing of that amount would undoubtedly fall under DOA however you did it. I have first hand knowledge of the care system and there is no way I am going to give up control of the  who, where and when if I need care. Our plan is to try and avoid residential care and that means being ably to pay for live in carers as an alternative and you are in the position to do the same so I would not give away that option.

    One of the main purposes of building up wealth during your lifetime is to make you as comfortable as possible in your final years and giving it all away to children instead is nuts, so just concentrate on the IHT issue, because if you were knocked over by a bus tomorrow your estate would have to come up with over £500k in IHT.

    With a good portion of your net worth tied up in property reducing your net worth is not so simple as you are likely to face a significant CGT liability if you sell or transfer any of your rental properties, but you are wealthy so I would suggest you spend a little bit of that wealth on some estate planning with a professional advisor. 
  • You definitely need to put a financial LPA in place otherwise your children will have a nightmare trying to manage your affairs should you loose mental capacity through illness or accident. 
  • Savvy_Sue said:
    Kirkmain said:
    So I want to find a way to spend or pass on my assets on in such a way that means i don't have to pay IHT or care and get it on the state like those who never worked as hard as ai did. sunak has floated abolishing IHT altogether which will make my life much less stressful, BUT the chances of the Torys still being in power in a few years is slim to zero. And Comrade Starmar and Raynor believe working hard and having money makes me evil and I should have my money taken from me and distributed by the state.
    Please, before you pursue this more seriously, take a look at the options for residential care which will accept what your local authority is willing to pay without any further contribution. There may be a residential home on every street where you live, but many of them will require residents to pay more. 

    Also consider how likely it is that you will need such care, and whether there is anything you can do to mitigate those risks - keeping healthy in mind and body. 

    Then speak to your loved ones and check what they would want for you. If they want to keep as many pennies as they can for themselves, at the risk of you being in an inconvenient location, with limited activities, frankly they don't deserve to inherit a penny from you. 

    Or maybe they'll take you in themselves, and sacrifice health and livelihood to ensure you are properly cared for when you are unable to look after yourself. 

    Between us, DH and I have lost 3 of our 4 parents. Until now, no-one's needed residential care, but we would gladly have seen them spend every penny of 'our inheritance' to be comfortable and safe had that been necessary. The final survivor is currently in a care home and we're waiting for the financial assessment now: I don't want a penny of what they scrimped and saved over the years if it reduces their levels of comfort and care. 

    No-one seizes your assets. With an estate that size, you'd have to live in a very expensive care home for a very long time (most don't live more than 2 years) to be expected to use all your assets. 

    I don't think you're evil for having money, or even for wanting to pass it on to your survivors. Having money while you're in good health gives you options: those options remain open to you if you eventually need help, either with home or residential care. 

    Thank you. But like you point out, my chances of needing residential care are relatively small. The chance of my children having to pay IHT is 100% if I do nothing now

    I trust that if I pass my children their inheritance now. If in the event I need care, AND they don't like the look of what the LA are offering they will dip into their gifts from me to put me somewhere nicer. But theres a also a chance I get a nice home without having to pay. If I have assets that the LA can take, the chances of me getting this nice place on the state is 0%. If i have nothing, I might still get it on the state, and if private money is needed for somewhere nicer then my chldren can choose to pay. But it will be their choice.
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