PCN for unloading on normal looking road that was actually private car park

BlueButterfly345

Hi all,

Any advice would be appreciated on whether I should continue with this to POPLA or pay the reduced fine tomorrow (yes I've left it to the end of the deadline to remember about this!)

Backstory is I was briefly parked on Regis Road off Kentish Town Road, I admittedly did see the signs around about a private car park but didn't pay them any notice as as far as I was concerned I was on a road not in a car park! I now realise the error of my ways of course. I was unloading items into my new flat and between me and my friends we didn't leave the car out of our eyesight for more than 30 seconds. Long enough though for a plain clothed enforcer to do their thing. I appealed to PPS (site managers) and they have unsurprisingly rejected it.

My question is is it worth taking it forward to POPLA or is the fact that I was unloading and have admitted enough going to do me in?

Will add below my appeal and the response.

BlueButterfly345

My appeal:

I am appealing on the basis that the parking ticket was not fairly issued as my car was not in situ there for a long enough time to warrant a ticket, to note it was not parked as I was in the vicinity of the car throughout my very brief time unloading. This is evident in the photos taken by the warden showing my boot open with boxes and bags in the boot consistent with unloading. Due to the fact that I was unloading and not parked I was there for a very short time, as evidenced by the fact that the photos taken span a range of two minutes, and that within those two minutes my boot went from being open to shut consistent with someone bring there a short while unloading before continuing with their journey.

In regards to the timeframe I was there for under five minutes and note that PPS have not provided evidence to say that I was there longer than this. This is within the compulsory time allocated in the government’s Code of Parking Practice as a cooling off period in which a motorist can consider the terms and conditions and change their mind about parking. This is important as in this circumstance I was initially unaware that I was parking on a road that was privately managed due to reasons that I will explain further and therefore the cooling-off period was important to me in being able to assess the signage further and decide that I did not want to agree to the terms and conditions within them and move on with even greater haste than originally planned.

To further explain when I initially pulled into the road I did so having quickly noted while driving that although there were double yellow lines there were no kerb markings and so I believed I was able to stop there to unload for up to 40 minutes should I wish consistent with the highway code. At this stage there was no indication to me that parking could be further restricted on this road as the sign on the opposite side of the road was obscured by stationary traffic waiting at the traffic lights (I have attached photos of this happening on other occasions). And additionally the other sign photographed by the warden is not visible from driver’s position that I was in as it is around a corner and further obscured by the fence being knocked back. Therefore there was nothing to indicate to me that this was not a normal adopted road with double yellow lines.

After a couple of quick trips to the first front door around the corner on Kentish Town Road – (first with the boot open, second with the boot closed) I returned and having been alerted by my friend who was helping me unload to someone hanging around suspiciously who I now realise to be the parking enforcer. I would like to note that as I came back to my car to already begin preparations to depart the enforcer quickly carried on walking leading me to wonder if they had been simply someone checking their phone so briefly were they by my car.  I then was able to notice the parking signs at which point I was able to read the details more closely and departed. I would like to note that I do think it unfortunate that the parking enforcer having seen multiple people coming to and from that car in the very short period of time that he was there did not see fit to explain to us the parking situation so that we could easily remedy our oversight.

I would maintain that the signage on Regis Road is not clear enough, while there are multiple signs they are small and detailed and so it is hard for someone to quickly understand (while also safely manoeuvring a vehicle) the quite unusual situation of having a privately managed adopted road directly off a main high-street. I do think further signage at the very entrance to the road, positioned where it cannot be obscured by stationary traffic and establishing it as a private road and clarifying that the signage regarding parking pertains to the road itself and not a car park would be useful.

Without that however I think it is even more important that motorists such as myself are able to maintain their right to have five minutes once safely stationary to understand the terms of the parking and decide if they want to stay there. I would like to emphasise that I was there for less than these five minutes and that this is evidenced by the extremely short time frame that the photos were taken in.

Below is PPS' response:

The charge was issued because your vehicle was parked on double yellow lines, which is a direct contravention of the advertised on the signage terms and conditions.

The signage, placed prominently, is sufficient to inform drivers that they are entering private land and need to be aware of terms and conditions once they are within the car park itself. It also made clear that failure to comply with the terms offered, regardless of the reason, would result in the issue of a £100 PCN.

Please note that double yellow lines marked out on a road or in a car park, are done so to prevent motorists from parking in these areas, as they may be deemed inappropriate for parking for various reasons, including that it may cause obstruction to road users for the purposes of access. Therefore, regardless of signage, the existence of double yellow lines is an easy to understand indicator that this area had not been made available for parking. At the point you parked your vehicle on double yellow lines, you indicated your acceptance of the terms in place and formed a contract.

Please be advised that while the British Parking Association Code of Practice allows motorists a grace period upon entry to a car park, this is to review the terms and conditions in operation: "If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action."

Having reviewed the images, there has been no evidence provided to suggest you were reviewing the terms and conditions. By unloading in this area, you have gained utility from the site rather than checking the signage and leaving the site. As such, the grace period does not apply as it was not used for its intended purpose. I do understand your reasons for this parking event; however, this site is private land with its own terms and conditions and the motorist is to adhere to the terms as set out. Considering the evidence provided by both parties, I find the ticket is issued correctly. Accordingly, I refuse your appeal. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to read the signs and adhere to the terms and conditions of the site.

Coupon-mad

It's not a fine.

No-one pays here.  That isn't an option.

Is it PPS (London) Ltd?

B789

Have you read the Newbies/FAQ thread?

Also, it is not a "discount". It is a bribe to get the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree to be easily picked.

BlueButterfly345

I have read the newbies thread now but hadn't when I first received it and appealed to PPS - hence posting here for advice on whether to appeal to POPLA having already engaged with PPS with the above appeal?

Also I do ultimately want to either have it quashed or pay, completely respect all those that don't do that but that just isn't an option for my good sanity!

BlueButterfly345

And yes PPS London LTD

B789

Paying the scammers makes you a part of the problem. You have come here for advice yet have already stated that you have no real intention of doing so. Why?

These scammers are easily defeated if you follow the advice. Pay them and you are forever marked as a "mug" by them and will regret it as you are now marked by them as low-hanging fruit.

fisherjim

BlueButterfly345 said:

My appeal:

The signage, placed prominently, is sufficient to inform drivers that they are entering private land and need to be aware of terms and conditions once they are within the car park itself. It also made clear that failure to comply with the terms offered, regardless of the reason, would result in the issue of a £100 PCN.

Please note that double yellow lines marked out on a road or in a car park, are done so to prevent motorists from parking in these areas, as they may be deemed inappropriate for parking for various reasons, including that it may cause obstruction to road users for the purposes of access. Therefore, regardless of signage, the existence of double yellow lines is an easy to understand indicator that this area had not been made available for parking. At the point you parked your vehicle on double yellow lines, you indicated your acceptance of the terms in place and formed a contract.

That above statement is utter tripe!

1 The signage on entering that road is not prominent or sufficient.

2 Double yellow lines on this road are a direct copy of authority wide indicators that are defined by the highway code, and providing there are no additional lines on the kerb loading is allowed. 

In effect if they want to copy road signage they should abide by it's real meaning not adapt it to suit their made up rules after the event.

I used to park in the first large unit on the right when it was a brewery depot for years and I had no idea that it was all a private road.

Look at GSV below, where are these prominent signs they are talking about?

This is a lucrative scam, please don't come on here and waste peoples time expecting a watertight get out appeal to the PPC, they are greedy scammers and reject everything.

POPLA might be winnable but they are dibby at times.

But why you want to give in to these greedy idiots that have devised this to make a mug of you heaven knows.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5509002,-0.1408332,3a,75y,233.87h,91.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCuXs3a9dONKIlGjpN3B9nQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

BlueButterfly345

Hi all, thanks so much for your help.

Was just trying to get opinions on if POPLA are also likely to go against me because I've said I'm unloading.

While I'm none the wiser there I think I will put in a POPLA appeal and cross my fingers.

Coupon-mad

POPLA will not be bothered that you were loading.  POPLA actually (wrongly) think loading is parking.

But they will look at photo evidence from you proving a lack of signs and terms in view. Gather your evidence.

B789

Even if POPLA don't allow the appeal, it has no bearing whatsoever should it lead to a court claim. Ideally, you would want a judge to be the final arbiter to decide whether you have a debt with the scammers.