Ill Health and Medical Retirement

ruudy

Marcon said:

ruudy said:

Thank You. That should hopefully be very useful and yes if they are familiar with it then that should be a massive help.

I'm trying to find ways of getting in touch with someone at HR regarding the other queries you raised, but they certainly aren't set up to be easy to contact. However, there is a forum and I was able to find an old ill health document from 2009. There doesn't appear to be any mentions of PHI or salary replacement on the forum, but I will continue to seek answers on that one if I can somehow manage to find a way to get through to HR.

The 2009 Ill Health doc says:

DEFINITIONS OF ILL HEALTH RETIREMENT

 

4.1        “Retirement on ill health grounds with immediate pension” means the cessation of employment as a result of serious physical or mental ill health (not simply a decline in energy or ability) such that, in the opinion of Royal Mail Group or associated employer the member is permanently incapable of:

 

a)            carrying out his current duties;

 

b)     carrying out such other duties for the employer as the employer might reasonably expect the member to perform; and

 

c)     engaging in employment with any other employer of a type which, in the opinion of his present employer, would be reasonable and appropriate for the member.

 

4.2   “Retirement on ill health grounds with lump sum payment” means the cessation of employment as a result of serious physical or mental ill health (not simply a decline in energy or ability) such that, in the opinion of Royal Mail Group or associated employer, the employee is, for the foreseeable future, incapable of:

 

        a)            carrying out his current duties;

 

        b)            carrying out such other duties for the employer as the employer might reasonably expect the member to perform.

It would be worth his while showing his doctor the above definitions and seeing what medical evidence the doctor might be prepared to give if asked to support an ill health application. That assumes he hasn't as yet started to draw his pension benefits - that needs to be clarified before going any further.

Does he have any paperwork from previous years indicating what he's being paid and why?

I will ask tomorrow to see if he has held onto any paperwork. 

When you say "draw his pension benefits" what would be examples of benefits that can be drawn? I'm a long way off pension myself so not very knowledgeable at all with this stuff. 

From what I can gather on the RM forum, RM have both a 60 pension and a 65 pension. The common sort of question that seems to be asked on that forum is advice on how much they should take as a lump sum out of their 60 pension.

I have a feeling this is similar to what he has, with him perhaps previously taking a % lump sum from his 60 pension, it rings a bell, but I'll try find out. If this is the case, could it potentially cause issues for IHR? 

The pension service you linked me to may be the best place to direct him tbh. Trying to contact the relevant parts of Royal Mail by phone or email has been extremely frustrating. Automated voice messages and emails all bouncing back as out of use. 

Marcon

ruudy said:

Marcon said:

ruudy said:

Thank You. That should hopefully be very useful and yes if they are familiar with it then that should be a massive help.

I'm trying to find ways of getting in touch with someone at HR regarding the other queries you raised, but they certainly aren't set up to be easy to contact. However, there is a forum and I was able to find an old ill health document from 2009. There doesn't appear to be any mentions of PHI or salary replacement on the forum, but I will continue to seek answers on that one if I can somehow manage to find a way to get through to HR.

The 2009 Ill Health doc says:

DEFINITIONS OF ILL HEALTH RETIREMENT

 

4.1        “Retirement on ill health grounds with immediate pension” means the cessation of employment as a result of serious physical or mental ill health (not simply a decline in energy or ability) such that, in the opinion of Royal Mail Group or associated employer the member is permanently incapable of:

 

a)            carrying out his current duties;

 

b)     carrying out such other duties for the employer as the employer might reasonably expect the member to perform; and

 

c)     engaging in employment with any other employer of a type which, in the opinion of his present employer, would be reasonable and appropriate for the member.

 

4.2   “Retirement on ill health grounds with lump sum payment” means the cessation of employment as a result of serious physical or mental ill health (not simply a decline in energy or ability) such that, in the opinion of Royal Mail Group or associated employer, the employee is, for the foreseeable future, incapable of:

 

        a)            carrying out his current duties;

 

        b)            carrying out such other duties for the employer as the employer might reasonably expect the member to perform.

It would be worth his while showing his doctor the above definitions and seeing what medical evidence the doctor might be prepared to give if asked to support an ill health application. That assumes he hasn't as yet started to draw his pension benefits - that needs to be clarified before going any further.

Does he have any paperwork from previous years indicating what he's being paid and why?

I will ask tomorrow to see if he has held onto any paperwork. 

1. When you say "draw his pension benefits" what would be examples of benefits that can be drawn? I'm a long way off pension myself so not very knowledgeable at all with this stuff. 

From what I can gather on the RM forum, RM have both a 60 pension and a 65 pension. The common sort of question that seems to be asked on that forum is advice on how much they should take as a lump sum out of their 60 pension.

I have a feeling this is similar to what he has, with him perhaps previously taking a % lump sum from his 60 pension, it rings a bell, but I'll try find out.

2. If this is the case, could it potentially cause issues for IHR? 

1. Depends on the type of pension. Assuming he was a member of the defined benefit (aka final salary) scheme, he could have taken a tax free lump sum + a regular monthly pension, or chosen to take just a regular monthly pension and no tax free cash.

2. It shouldn't, because any IHR application will be made on the basis of his health now (which could have deteriorated since he drew benefits from the 60 pension section.

ruudy

Marcon said:

ruudy said:

Marcon said:

ruudy said:

Thank You. That should hopefully be very useful and yes if they are familiar with it then that should be a massive help.

I'm trying to find ways of getting in touch with someone at HR regarding the other queries you raised, but they certainly aren't set up to be easy to contact. However, there is a forum and I was able to find an old ill health document from 2009. There doesn't appear to be any mentions of PHI or salary replacement on the forum, but I will continue to seek answers on that one if I can somehow manage to find a way to get through to HR.

The 2009 Ill Health doc says:

DEFINITIONS OF ILL HEALTH RETIREMENT

 

4.1        “Retirement on ill health grounds with immediate pension” means the cessation of employment as a result of serious physical or mental ill health (not simply a decline in energy or ability) such that, in the opinion of Royal Mail Group or associated employer the member is permanently incapable of:

 

a)            carrying out his current duties;

 

b)     carrying out such other duties for the employer as the employer might reasonably expect the member to perform; and

 

c)     engaging in employment with any other employer of a type which, in the opinion of his present employer, would be reasonable and appropriate for the member.

 

4.2   “Retirement on ill health grounds with lump sum payment” means the cessation of employment as a result of serious physical or mental ill health (not simply a decline in energy or ability) such that, in the opinion of Royal Mail Group or associated employer, the employee is, for the foreseeable future, incapable of:

 

        a)            carrying out his current duties;

 

        b)            carrying out such other duties for the employer as the employer might reasonably expect the member to perform.

It would be worth his while showing his doctor the above definitions and seeing what medical evidence the doctor might be prepared to give if asked to support an ill health application. That assumes he hasn't as yet started to draw his pension benefits - that needs to be clarified before going any further.

Does he have any paperwork from previous years indicating what he's being paid and why?

I will ask tomorrow to see if he has held onto any paperwork. 

1. When you say "draw his pension benefits" what would be examples of benefits that can be drawn? I'm a long way off pension myself so not very knowledgeable at all with this stuff. 

From what I can gather on the RM forum, RM have both a 60 pension and a 65 pension. The common sort of question that seems to be asked on that forum is advice on how much they should take as a lump sum out of their 60 pension.

I have a feeling this is similar to what he has, with him perhaps previously taking a % lump sum from his 60 pension, it rings a bell, but I'll try find out.

2. If this is the case, could it potentially cause issues for IHR? 

1. Depends on the type of pension. Assuming he was a member of the defined benefit (aka final salary) scheme, he could have taken a tax free lump sum + a regular monthly pension, or chosen to take just a regular monthly pension and no tax free cash.

2. It shouldn't, because any IHR application will be made on the basis of his health now (which could have deteriorated since he drew benefits from the 60 pension section.

Thank you again. 

So when we say draw benefits, it's just another way of saying taking your pension money in one way or another. I understand. I thought for a second it maybe included something else.

Re. Point 2. - I know his health has deteriorated badly in the last 1 - 1.5 yrs so I'm almost certain this would have been since he took anything from his pension (if in fact he has, like I suspect). 

Bimbly

ruudy said:
what I can gather on the RM forum, RM have both a 60 pension and a 65 pension. 

My employer did similar. They stopped the 60 one and opened a 65 one, with most people moving across so they have benefits in both pension schemes. It could be that he is already drawing from the 60 one and the 65 is yet to pay out, making ill health retirement possible from that.

Marcon

ruudy said:

Thank you again. 

So when we say draw benefits, it's just another way of saying taking your pension money in one way or another. I understand. I thought for a second it maybe included something else.

Re. Point 2. - I know his health has deteriorated badly in the last 1 - 1.5 yrs so I'm almost certain this would have been since he took anything from his pension (if in fact he has, like I suspect). 

Yes. It's a way of avoiding the word 'retiring', since that word now causes confusion. In days gone by, 'retiring' meant just that: stopping work and taking your pension at one and the same time. Nowadays many people take benefits from their pension and continue to work, or vice versa.

ruudy

Bimbly said:

ruudy said:
what I can gather on the RM forum, RM have both a 60 pension and a 65 pension. 

My employer did similar. They stopped the 60 one and opened a 65 one, with most people moving across so they have benefits in both pension schemes. It could be that he is already drawing from the 60 one and the 65 is yet to pay out, making ill health retirement possible from that.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I had never heard of this before. After some further discussions, I think he has taken everything from the 60 pension as a lump sum leaving just the 65 pension which I believe came into force around 2012, so probably not a great deal accrued in the pension.

Marcon said:

ruudy said:

Thank you again. 

So when we say draw benefits, it's just another way of saying taking your pension money in one way or another. I understand. I thought for a second it maybe included something else.

Re. Point 2. - I know his health has deteriorated badly in the last 1 - 1.5 yrs so I'm almost certain this would have been since he took anything from his pension (if in fact he has, like I suspect). 

Yes. It's a way of avoiding the word 'retiring', since that word now causes confusion. In days gone by, 'retiring' meant just that: stopping work and taking your pension at one and the same time. Nowadays many people take benefits from their pension and continue to work, or vice versa.

The whole thing has been very confusing, I will say that

I have managed to garner a bit more information. The pension he has remaining (and I don't think there will be much in it as it started in 2012) is a RMPP (Royal Mail Pension Plan) Defined Benefit Cash Balance Scheme. He has called the provider to discuss how much he has and what he would be entitled to in the event of IHR. They informed him that he will need to wait until his statement comes out next month and said they can only discuss any potential payout when he has been retired due to ill health. HR were equally unhelpful and wouldn't even provide me with any information on IHR. Fortunately I was able to get it by other means...

There appear to be two sets of criteria for meeting IHR. The difference between the two seemingly being your capability to work any other job ever again (or for at least 10 years, whichever is sooner).

1. Leaving the business due to ill health with income benefit

- carrying out your current duties;

- carrying out such other duties for Royal Mail Group as the business might reasonably

- expect you to perform; and

- engaging in employment with any other employer of a type which, in our opinion,

would be reasonable and appropriate for you.

Note: ‘Permanent incapacity’, for the purposes of this procedure, means until your normal

retirement age, or, for at least 10 years from the date of medical opinion; whichever is the

sooner. Where you are close to, or over, normal retirement age, permanent incapacity shall

mean for at least 3 years from the date of medical opinion.

If you are a contributing RMPP member and meet the criteria for leaving the business due

to ill health with income benefit, you will receive those benefits for a period of up to three

years afer leaving the business. If benefits are paid for a three-year period, then at the end

of that period, a cash income benefit lump sum payment will be paid to you (subject to

income tax and National Insurance deductions).

RMPP benefits accrued up to the date of leaving the business will also come into payment

automatically on the last day of service if you meet the criteria for leaving the business due

to ill health with income benefit.


Leaving the business due to ill health with lump sump payment

Leaving the business due to ill health with lump sum payment refers to the cessation of your

employment as a result of serious physical or mental ill health such that, in the opinion of

Royal Mail Group you are for the foreseeable future, incapable of:

- Leaving the business due to ill health with lump sump payment

- carrying out your current duties; and

- carrying out such other duties for Royal Mail Group as we might reasonably expect you

to perform.

Note: Foreseeable future shall mean a period of at least 9 months from the date of medical

opinion.

Where you are a non-managerial employee and have at least one year’s service and meet

the criteria for leaving the business due to ill health with a lump sum payment, you will be

entitled to receive a payment equivalent to 16 weeks’ pay.

Your pension benefits will be deferred until normal retirement age, subject to the rules of

the relevant pension scheme.There will be no provision of death in service cover after leaving service under these medical criteria.