Care home fees after inheriting 50% of property

theoretica

If your mother builds up a debt it will need to be paid out of her estate on her death.

lisyloo

sjl_elbac said:

Can I just change the word 'strange' to 'grey'. Its a grey area. There have been similar cases. I don't find it strange moving into a property that is 50% mine. I post here for good judgment and because I want it on record, my experience and to help others in their search for answers. I understand that many of you believe that government is king and rule of law is just. But I don't. And I can survive whatever the outcome because I'm simply very strong. Yes physically and mentally. And my mother has paid her way. An Irish hard working girl she deserves the respect that she has earned. You people that think that HMG can now simply take away her house just like that. You need to get a grip. I am a fighter and will happily update you on the outcome. Even if I lose.

I’m not making any moral judgment here but it would help to understand your position.
are you saying your mother shouldn’t have to pay?
or are you accepting the bill but don’t want to sell your home?
if the latter have you asked the local authority for a deferred payment agreement?
the interest would be added onto HER bill.
when she’s dies you’d need to sell or take a mortgage to pay the debt.
did she express any wishes when she was alive or do you know what she would have wanted?

what I’m not sure about (and this genuinely IS money saving) is whether a mortgage would be cheaper for you than a DPA.
that might be one angle to investigate as you might not want to pursue the DPA if a mortgage is cheaper.

if you want a real money saving suggestion (no judgment) then look after her at home and incorporate some of the care into the homeschooling as there are 3 at home. She will probably qualify for free care visits at home if she has little savings and yes I do know (quite well) what this means for someone with dementia, extremely difficult but it’s the obvious option if you don’t want to pay for other people to do it.

Exodi

Well this thread certainly took a dark turn.

I commend the other posters still engaged in this discussion for their patience and ability to bite their tongue.

Unfortunately I cannot post what I truly want to in fear of being banned, so I think I'll take this opportunity to depart from the discussion.

Good luck to your mother OP.

sjl_elbac

lisyloo said:

sjl_elbac said:

Can I just change the word 'strange' to 'grey'. Its a grey area. There have been similar cases. I don't find it strange moving into a property that is 50% mine. I post here for good judgment and because I want it on record, my experience and to help others in their search for answers. I understand that many of you believe that government is king and rule of law is just. But I don't. And I can survive whatever the outcome because I'm simply very strong. Yes physically and mentally. And my mother has paid her way. An Irish hard working girl she deserves the respect that she has earned. You people that think that HMG can now simply take away her house just like that. You need to get a grip. I am a fighter and will happily update you on the outcome. Even if I lose.

I’m not making any moral judgment here but it would help to understand your position.
are you saying your mother shouldn’t have to pay?
or are you accepting the bill but don’t want to sell your home?
if the latter have you asked the local authority for a deferred payment agreement?
the interest would be added onto HER bill.
when she’s dies you’d need to sell or take a mortgage to pay the debt.
did she express any wishes when she was alive or do you know what she would have wanted?

what I’m not sure about (and this genuinely IS money saving) is whether a mortgage would be cheaper for you than a DPA.
that might be one angle to investigate as you might not want to pursue the DPA if a mortgage is cheaper.

if you want a real money saving suggestion (no judgment) then look after her at home and incorporate some of the care into the homeschooling as there are 3 at home. She will probably qualify for free care visits at home if she has little savings and yes I do know (quite well) what this means for someone with dementia, extremely difficult but it’s the obvious option if you don’t want to pay for other people to do it.

Thanks for the comment. We did take care of mum for a month. It was hell.
We had our dad there to in palliative care. Difficult times.

I won't go down the DPA route and will probably by my mother out. I'm starting to understand my options better.

It's the first time I've done anything like this so I thought I'd ask for advice.

No-one wants to spend money that could be avoided and I'm sure most would agree.
We already pay so much tax in this country and they spend it on the most strange things.
I could go on and on about it.
The country has turned into a mess.

KxMx

I'd much rather my mother had assets so she (and I if needed) could choose the best care available. Instead of being in the position she is in of not having any.

At 66 she is already in poor health living in sheltered housing. It's almost guaranteed she will end up needing residental care and the choices will be very limited indeed. 

I've just seen a friend have a 3 year battle to get a relative residental care. No assets, every other professional involved said he needed care home but social services refused to pay.
Instead they increased care visits from 3 to 4 daily then pressured family to call in frequently on top. 
He only got funded care after a hospital admission, where the medical staff refused discharge home. 

Gavin83

sjl_elbac said:

Yes I understand my responsibilities as a father, husband and son and I have to take all the issues into account. 
There is no point virtue signalling. Its about the details.
Most people I talk to are in agreement that people shouldn't have to sell their property to pay for care.

It's not about acting in mothers best interest which I obviously do. It is about moving through the experience and taking the right decisions so that we are all happy with the outcome.

I have read that some Local Authorities would even disregard the property in this situation and it just depends on the LA. 

This excerpt was taken from a solicitors website: 
When Betty goes into care, her assets for means assessment purposes will include her own share of the home, but not the share held in John’s Will trust (because that doesn’t belong to her). Hence the share in the Will trust will be protected for the children. Also, the value of Betty’s share of the home for means assessment, is likely to be significantly lower than 50% of the total property value, because it’s the market value of the share that is assessed. The market value of a half share is likely to be much lower than 50% of the whole value, because a half share on its own will be much less marketable.

The Local Authority has basically washed their hands with my case and have left the carehome company to me up for the money.

I have told the company that we aren't in a position to sell and so I am waiting for the LA to get in contact with me.

Sorry but I don’t think you are acting in your mothers best interests. I think you’re trying to protect your inheritance. Your mothers best interests are for her to have the money for the best level of care possible.

I have some sympathy as I’m in a similar situation myself and it’s not easy to watch a potential inheritance disappear. However my relative is in a great care home with zero council funded residents and is receiving a great level of care. That’s worth more to me than some extra money in the bank.

Your situation is actually worse than I thought. Care homes are far less patient than the LA and they will happily evict your mum if they feel you’re taking the pee. If you’re directly funding with no intention of paying the bill this will happen at some point. I’m surprised it hasn’t already.

The LA probably won’t contact you if you’re self funding. Of course they’ll wash their hands of it, as far as they’re concerned she has the money to fund herself. They might even refuse altogether, even if you contact them.

I’d suggest working out a plan and make sure you have the money in place, or at least obvious steps to have the money in place for when the care home lose their patience. Trust me on this, you don’t want to move your mother. People with dementia don’t move well at all.

sjl_elbac

Gavin83 said:

sjl_elbac said:

Yes I understand my responsibilities as a father, husband and son and I have to take all the issues into account. 
There is no point virtue signalling. Its about the details.
Most people I talk to are in agreement that people shouldn't have to sell their property to pay for care.

It's not about acting in mothers best interest which I obviously do. It is about moving through the experience and taking the right decisions so that we are all happy with the outcome.

I have read that some Local Authorities would even disregard the property in this situation and it just depends on the LA. 

This excerpt was taken from a solicitors website: 
When Betty goes into care, her assets for means assessment purposes will include her own share of the home, but not the share held in John’s Will trust (because that doesn’t belong to her). Hence the share in the Will trust will be protected for the children. Also, the value of Betty’s share of the home for means assessment, is likely to be significantly lower than 50% of the total property value, because it’s the market value of the share that is assessed. The market value of a half share is likely to be much lower than 50% of the whole value, because a half share on its own will be much less marketable.

The Local Authority has basically washed their hands with my case and have left the carehome company to me up for the money.

I have told the company that we aren't in a position to sell and so I am waiting for the LA to get in contact with me.

Sorry but I don’t think you are acting in your mothers best interests. I think you’re trying to protect your inheritance. Your mothers best interests are for her to have the money for the best level of care possible.

I have some sympathy as I’m in a similar situation myself and it’s not easy to watch a potential inheritance disappear. However my relative is in a great care home with zero council funded residents and is receiving a great level of care. That’s worth more to me than some extra money in the bank.

Your situation is actually worse than I thought. Care homes are far less patient than the LA and they will happily evict your mum if they feel you’re taking the pee. If you’re directly funding with no intention of paying the bill this will happen at some point. I’m surprised it hasn’t already.

The LA probably won’t contact you if you’re self funding. Of course they’ll wash their hands of it, as far as they’re concerned she has the money to fund herself. They might even refuse altogether, even if you contact them.

I’d suggest working out a plan and make sure you have the money in place, or at least obvious steps to have the money in place for when the care home lose their patience. Trust me on this, you don’t want to move your mother. People with dementia don’t move well at all.

Yes I am trying to act in the best interest of my mother. My hands are tied for the moment as there was an outstanding mortgage charged to the house which has just been paid off. 
Once the charge has been lifted, the probate lawyers can finish the legalities which could take up to 6 months more
Meanwhile mum's care costs are increasing and not being paid.
It seems I am wasting my time here and will look elsewhere.

Keep_pedalling

sjl_elbac said:

Gavin83 said:

sjl_elbac said:

Yes I understand my responsibilities as a father, husband and son and I have to take all the issues into account. 
There is no point virtue signalling. Its about the details.
Most people I talk to are in agreement that people shouldn't have to sell their property to pay for care.

It's not about acting in mothers best interest which I obviously do. It is about moving through the experience and taking the right decisions so that we are all happy with the outcome.

I have read that some Local Authorities would even disregard the property in this situation and it just depends on the LA. 

This excerpt was taken from a solicitors website: 
When Betty goes into care, her assets for means assessment purposes will include her own share of the home, but not the share held in John’s Will trust (because that doesn’t belong to her). Hence the share in the Will trust will be protected for the children. Also, the value of Betty’s share of the home for means assessment, is likely to be significantly lower than 50% of the total property value, because it’s the market value of the share that is assessed. The market value of a half share is likely to be much lower than 50% of the whole value, because a half share on its own will be much less marketable.

The Local Authority has basically washed their hands with my case and have left the carehome company to me up for the money.

I have told the company that we aren't in a position to sell and so I am waiting for the LA to get in contact with me.

Sorry but I don’t think you are acting in your mothers best interests. I think you’re trying to protect your inheritance. Your mothers best interests are for her to have the money for the best level of care possible.

I have some sympathy as I’m in a similar situation myself and it’s not easy to watch a potential inheritance disappear. However my relative is in a great care home with zero council funded residents and is receiving a great level of care. That’s worth more to me than some extra money in the bank.

Your situation is actually worse than I thought. Care homes are far less patient than the LA and they will happily evict your mum if they feel you’re taking the pee. If you’re directly funding with no intention of paying the bill this will happen at some point. I’m surprised it hasn’t already.

The LA probably won’t contact you if you’re self funding. Of course they’ll wash their hands of it, as far as they’re concerned she has the money to fund herself. They might even refuse altogether, even if you contact them.

I’d suggest working out a plan and make sure you have the money in place, or at least obvious steps to have the money in place for when the care home lose their patience. Trust me on this, you don’t want to move your mother. People with dementia don’t move well at all.

Yes I am trying to act in the best interest of my mother. My hands are tied for the moment as there was an outstanding mortgage charged to the house which has just been paid off. 
Once the charge has been lifted, the probate lawyers can finish the legalities which could take up to 6 months more
Meanwhile mum's care costs are increasing and not being paid.
It seems I am wasting my time here and will look elsewhere.

While I feel for you having to go through this, you clearly have a conflict of interest and the fight you are embarking on is clearly serving your best interest not your mother’s. If you are just looking for people to agree with your point of view then you are right, you are wasting you time on this board.

I will leave you with a real money saving tip although it may be too late for this, don’t leave your parents probate in the hands of solicitors. It costs lots of money and will add months to the process. 

elsien

I’m not sure what other answers are available to you.
You’ve been given information about deferred payments. You’ve been information about remortgaging. You’ve been given information about appealing CHC. You’ve seen a specialist solicitor who has advised you about negotiating the value of 50% share. That does seem to have pretty much covered all of the bases, apart from the one that allows you to keep all the house which the consensus is is unlikely to be an option, 
Your  question does seem to have changed slightly in your last post from “how do I avoid having to pay my mother‘s care costs” to “the bill is racking up; up what do I do when I’m waiting for probate?” The answer to that is to go back to the local authority to discuss a deferred payment agreement or any other options. 

lisyloo

sjl_elbac said:

Klisyloo said:

sjl_elbac said:

Can I just change the word 'strange' to 'grey'. Its a grey area. There have been similar cases. I don't find it strange moving into a property that is 50% mine. I post here for good judgment and because I want it on record, my experience and to help others in their search for answers. I understand that many of you believe that government is king and rule of law is just. But I don't. And I can survive whatever the outcome because I'm simply very strong. Yes physically and mentally. And my mother has paid her way. An Irish hard working girl she deserves the respect that she has earned. You people that think that HMG can now simply take away her house just like that. You need to get a grip. I am a fighter and will happily update you on the outcome. Even if I lose.

I’m not making any moral judgment here but it would help to understand your position.
are you saying your mother shouldn’t have to pay?
or are you accepting the bill but don’t want to sell your home?
if the latter have you asked the local authority for a deferred payment agreement?
the interest would be added onto HER bill.
when she’s dies you’d need to sell or take a mortgage to pay the debt.
did she express any wishes when she was alive or do you know what she would have wanted?

what I’m not sure about (and this genuinely IS money saving) is whether a mortgage would be cheaper for you than a DPA.
that might be one angle to investigate as you might not want to pursue the DPA if a mortgage is cheaper.

if you want a real money saving suggestion (no judgment) then look after her at home and incorporate some of the care into the homeschooling as there are 3 at home. She will probably qualify for free care visits at home if she has little savings and yes I do know (quite well) what this means for someone with dementia, extremely difficult but it’s the obvious option if you don’t want to pay for other people to do it.

Thanks for the comment. We did take care of mum for a month. It was hell.
We had our dad there to in palliative care. Difficult times.

I won't go down the DPA route and will probably by my mother out. I'm starting to understand my options better.

It's the first time I've done anything like this so I thought I'd ask for advice.

No-one wants to spend money that could be avoided and I'm sure most would agree.
We already pay so much tax in this country and they spend it on the most strange things.
I could go on and on about it.
The country has turned into a mess.

I’m not aware of any way  to avoid care fees, but if it’s a valuable property you could look at buying an annuity.
this is effectively buying an insurance to hedge against the risk of her living a long time.
you would pay a six figure sum but have care fees covered for life.
we did look into this for my MIL but her flat wasn’t valuable enough.
she died not long after (beginning of covid) so it would not have been a good buy for us.