Girlfriend has a debt from abroad, will I be liable if we get married?

f.castle

Hello,

my girlfriend from abroad had to remortgage her family house abroad to support her family business which is also abroad. Her family house is now in her name rather than her parents.
She also works full time and has professional career.
She mentioned she had a loan (mortgage, will clarify exactly) when we first met but I did not ask too many questions at first as I didn't know where we were going. 
We are serious about each other now.

1. If we get married and she moves to be with me here in England, will I also be liable for the loan (mortgage) on her property?
2. I have Subtantial savings for a house deposit in England, I assume the savings remain mine if/ once we get married?
3. Do the savings have to be split with her if the worst happens and we split?

I know a difficult conversation will follow, but want to also know I can protect myself in the chance s**t hits the fan early on.

I know what people are thinking reading this..eeek.

thanks

la531983

Nobody in this country is liable for someone else's debts unless they are a named guarantor.

Nobody would be able to tell you the split, if any, of your personal assets that would happen in a divorce, as it varies and depends on a host of factors.

Reading between the lines though I suspect you aren't fully bought into the idea and you have some creeping doubts. 

theoretica

You will also need to know the law of the country the house is in - but as a house and mortgage, probably it is worth more than the debt, so there is also the question of if you become part owner of the property.  This may complicate trying to buy a house with second home stamp duty etc (and I understand just buying in your name isn't the simple solution it seems).

If you split after a short marriage with no children the expectation is you return as much as possible to what you owned pre-marriage.

Ayr_Rage

You may well find that family ties and obligations will remain her priority and if she marries you she will expect you to help her family too.

I am married to a foreigner and I know exactly where her loyalties lie.

RAS

Once you are married all the assets (including stuff like pension pots) owned by you both in the UK and by your wife in the other country become "assets of the marriage." So although the law in her country of origin may not recognise your interest in her property, the divorce courts here would count it when sharing them.

However, if she's got a loan on the house there, the chances are it's net value going to be pretty low, particularly if house prices there are already low. 

Expect your wife to prioritise paying the loan for the house her parents live in and to come under pressure from the extended family to share her good fortune more widely. An OP on here discovered hubbie had paid for years for a young relative to go through school, without telling her, whilst they got into serious debt. Another's husband buy himself cars in his country of origin. It might be used by family members when he isn't there, or sold to help extended family, if necessary. 

If a short marriage fails, the expectation is that both parties are returned to the situation they were in when they married, although children complicate that. Longer childless marriages assume a 50/50 split of the marital assets, unless there are specific circumstances.

If you buy a house together, you could have a deed of trust agreeing that you get your savings back, then split the increase in value, but there's no guarantee a court would enforce that. Almost certainly not, if you had children together.

TBagpuss

OK, in England and Wales, if you marry, and then divorce, then all assets in either of your names become part of the 'pot' to divide up, so she would potentially have a claim against your savings and you against her house overseas.
However, the aim is to achieve a split of the assets which is fair in all the circumstances, so in a short, childless marriage, savings in an account in your sole name, and a house in another country in her sole name, might well be seen as pre-marital assets and not split, or not split equally.

You can she could have a pre-nuptial agreement drawn up setting out that you will keep those assets if you so split, and if you use your savings as a house deposit, you could have a declaration of Trust and a post-nuptial agreement to set out that you would have unequal interests in the house if you later divorced and sold it.

Both types of agreement become part of the 'all the circumstances' that a court considers if you later divorce, so while a Judge isn't bound by those agreement, She can take them into account in deciding what was a fair split, and certainly, if you divorced in the early years of the marriage, without having children, it's likely it would be seen as fair to stick to terms of the agreements. 

Under the law in this country, you would not be liable for any debt in her name, as you have not signed a contract of any kind with the lender. You might be liable if the law there makes spouses liable for one another's debts, but presumably that would only be an issue if she defaulted on the mortgage payments and the property was repossessed and was in negative equity so the dale did not produce enough money to clear the mortgage.

Again, you and she need to discuss the situation and make sure both of you have the same expectations when it comes to how you will manage your finances as a couple -does she expect you to contribute to her mortgage, or to pay a higher share of your joint outgoings because she has that money going out?  Do the two of you intend to keep your finances separate or be fully merged? Also clarify with her the situation with the mortgage. IS it a case that it is her house, that she sees as an asset but that she allows her parents to live  (i.e that in due time, she expects to be able to either sell it or live there herself, once they pass) or is it in her name but with them covering the mortgage (i.e she really sees it as their house, she is just facilitating their ownership) 

There's no right or wrong answer, but you will need to have the conversation and to make sure you both have similar expectations and that you then consider having a formal agreement in place that set s out which things each of you is sharing completely, which you plan to keep separate, and that you can agree on something both of you sees as reasonable. 

(Worst case scenario, you find that you expectations are radically different - in which case, better to know now that after you are married - now, you have the opportunity to negotiate and try to find an acceptable middle ground, or to decide that your different views are a deal breaker. 

f.castle

la531983 said:

Nobody in this country is liable for someone else's debts unless they are a named guarantor.

Nobody would be able to tell you the split, if any, of your personal assets that would happen in a divorce, as it varies and depends on a host of factors.

Reading between the lines though I suspect you aren't fully bought into the idea and you have some creeping doubts. 

True, creeping doubts which I need clarity over and the subsequent posts have helped me figure out what I need to ask.theoretica said:

You will also need to know the law of the country the house is in - but as a house and mortgage, probably it is worth more than the debt, so there is also the question of if you become part owner of the property.  This may complicate trying to buy a house with second home stamp duty etc (and I understand just buying in your name isn't the simple solution it seems).

If you split after a short marriage with no children the expectation is you return as much as possible to what you owned pre-marriage.

ah, so the court would likely look in favour of returning to the original position if say I brought 80% to the table an she brought 20%, we would revert to that if things ended quickly?

Ayr_Rage said:

You may well find that family ties and obligations will remain her priority and if she marries you she will expect you to help her family too.

I am married to a foreigner and I know exactly where her loyalties lie.

Yep just had a convo with her and she explained her family events are important to her, so I was talked about how she would have to choose between a holiday for us or going to see her family. pros and cons to this.

RAS said:

Once you are married all the assets (including stuff like pension pots) owned by you both in the UK and by your wife in the other country become "assets of the marriage." So although the law in her country of origin may not recognise your interest in her property, the divorce courts here would count it when sharing them.

However, if she's got a loan on the house there, the chances are it's net value going to be pretty low, particularly if house prices there are already low. 

Expect your wife to prioritise paying the loan for the house her parents live in and to come under pressure from the extended family to share her good fortune more widely. An OP on here discovered hubbie had paid for years for a young relative to go through school, without telling her, whilst they got into serious debt. Another's husband buy himself cars in his country of origin. It might be used by family members when he isn't there, or sold to help extended family, if necessary. 

If a short marriage fails, the expectation is that both parties are returned to the situation they were in when they married, although children complicate that. Longer childless marriages assume a 50/50 split of the marital assets, unless there are specific circumstances.

If you buy a house together, you could have a deed of trust agreeing that you get your savings back, then split the increase in value, but there's no guarantee a court would enforce that. Almost certainly not, if you had children together.

So, the UK court would recognise her pension and assets from her country (english speaking much law derived from england).
Yes, she has just mentioned to me today some things regarding family commitments which I will be asking her to make a choice of how to manage this shortly. Really helpful, thank you.
I need to look into this deed of trust as this sounds interesting.

TBagpuss said:

OK, in England and Wales, if you marry, and then divorce, then all assets in either of your names become part of the 'pot' to divide up, so she would potentially have a claim against your savings and you against her house overseas.
However, the aim is to achieve a split of the assets which is fair in all the circumstances, so in a short, childless marriage, savings in an account in your sole name, and a house in another country in her sole name, might well be seen as pre-marital assets and not split, or not split equally.

You can she could have a pre-nuptial agreement drawn up setting out that you will keep those assets if you so split, and if you use your savings as a house deposit, you could have a declaration of Trust and a post-nuptial agreement to set out that you would have unequal interests in the house if you later divorced and sold it.

Both types of agreement become part of the 'all the circumstances' that a court considers if you later divorce, so while a Judge isn't bound by those agreement, She can take them into account in deciding what was a fair split, and certainly, if you divorced in the early years of the marriage, without having children, it's likely it would be seen as fair to stick to terms of the agreements. 

Under the law in this country, you would not be liable for any debt in her name, as you have not signed a contract of any kind with the lender. You might be liable if the law there makes spouses liable for one another's debts, but presumably that would only be an issue if she defaulted on the mortgage payments and the property was repossessed and was in negative equity so the dale did not produce enough money to clear the mortgage.

Again, you and she need to discuss the situation and make sure both of you have the same expectations when it comes to how you will manage your finances as a couple -does she expect you to contribute to her mortgage, or to pay a higher share of your joint outgoings because she has that money going out?  Do the two of you intend to keep your finances separate or be fully merged? Also clarify with her the situation with the mortgage. IS it a case that it is her house, that she sees as an asset but that she allows her parents to live  (i.e that in due time, she expects to be able to either sell it or live there herself, once they pass) or is it in her name but with them covering the mortgage (i.e she really sees it as their house, she is just facilitating their ownership) 

There's no right or wrong answer, but you will need to have the conversation and to make sure you both have similar expectations and that you then consider having a formal agreement in place that set s out which things each of you is sharing completely, which you plan to keep separate, and that you can agree on something both of you sees as reasonable. 

(Worst case scenario, you find that you expectations are radically different - in which case, better to know now that after you are married - now, you have the opportunity to negotiate and try to find an acceptable middle ground, or to decide that your different views are a deal breaker. 

THANKS, so I need to look at the law in her country to see what I may be liable for.
"a post-nuptial agreement to set out that you would have unequal interests in the house if you later divorced and sold it." . SORRY, I do not quite understand this part, so if I sold the house, are you saying it is unequal interest if she would get half the value given I put the majority in for the deposit and subsequent mortgage payments?

BrassicWoman

you could not marry, and have good wills and life insurance...

TBagpuss

f.castle said:

TBagpuss said:

OK, in England and Wales, if you marry, and then divorce, then all assets in either of your names become part of the 'pot' to divide up, so she would potentially have a claim against your savings and you against her house overseas.
However, the aim is to achieve a split of the assets which is fair in all the circumstances, so in a short, childless marriage, savings in an account in your sole name, and a house in another country in her sole name, might well be seen as pre-marital assets and not split, or not split equally.

You can she could have a pre-nuptial agreement drawn up setting out that you will keep those assets if you so split, and if you use your savings as a house deposit, you could have a declaration of Trust and a post-nuptial agreement to set out that you would have unequal interests in the house if you later divorced and sold it.

Both types of agreement become part of the 'all the circumstances' that a court considers if you later divorce, so while a Judge isn't bound by those agreement, She can take them into account in deciding what was a fair split, and certainly, if you divorced in the early years of the marriage, without having children, it's likely it would be seen as fair to stick to terms of the agreements. 

Under the law in this country, you would not be liable for any debt in her name, as you have not signed a contract of any kind with the lender. You might be liable if the law there makes spouses liable for one another's debts, but presumably that would only be an issue if she defaulted on the mortgage payments and the property was repossessed and was in negative equity so the dale did not produce enough money to clear the mortgage.

Again, you and she need to discuss the situation and make sure both of you have the same expectations when it comes to how you will manage your finances as a couple -does she expect you to contribute to her mortgage, or to pay a higher share of your joint outgoings because she has that money going out?  Do the two of you intend to keep your finances separate or be fully merged? Also clarify with her the situation with the mortgage. IS it a case that it is her house, that she sees as an asset but that she allows her parents to live  (i.e that in due time, she expects to be able to either sell it or live there herself, once they pass) or is it in her name but with them covering the mortgage (i.e she really sees it as their house, she is just facilitating their ownership) 

There's no right or wrong answer, but you will need to have the conversation and to make sure you both have similar expectations and that you then consider having a formal agreement in place that set s out which things each of you is sharing completely, which you plan to keep separate, and that you can agree on something both of you sees as reasonable. 

(Worst case scenario, you find that you expectations are radically different - in which case, better to know now that after you are married - now, you have the opportunity to negotiate and try to find an acceptable middle ground, or to decide that your different views are a deal breaker. 

THANKS, so I need to look at the law in her country to see what I may be liable for.
"a post-nuptial agreement to set out that you would have unequal interests in the house if you later divorced and sold it." . SORRY, I do not quite understand this part, so if I sold the house, are you saying it is unequal interest if she would get half the value given I put the majority in for the deposit and subsequent mortgage payments?

Unless you have an agreement to the contrary, it's usual for the matrimonial home o be treated as joint even if you made unequal contributions. If you married, lived in a house which you had paid more towards, then it's likely that the starting point if you split would still be 50/50 on that house.

If you had a formal pre-or post nup stating that the house was to be owned in unequal shared, a court would take that agreement into account in deciding what was fair.  I talk about selling because a court can order a property to be sold, and because selling the house is the point where (normally) the money would be split. But the key thing to be aware of is that you putting more into the house would not automatically mean you got a bigger share idf the two of you later divorced.