MSE News: Energy bills to fall by 7% as new Price Cap is announced

matt_drummer

TMSG said:

I know :-) I pored over those tables before I found your post above. But still, as they include those regional tables already adding just two more columns for the SC and rates wouldn't be terribly complicated and it wouldn't use more paper:-)

IMO.

I am sorry, I don't understand what the two additional columns would be.

The standing charge and the unit rate per region are already there.

What would they add in another two columns?

TMSG

matt_drummer said:

You are trying really hard and you still spend more on usage than the standing charge which demonstrates that my statement is pretty much correct.

Well... the trajectory is clear. We're using fewer units year on year and the SC is going up every year. So when we cross over, perhaps next year if I can believe the Cornwall chaps, I'll open a bottle of bubbly.

matt_drummer said:

A bit like the EBSS, it went to all sorts of people who didn't need it, me included. It is time our leaders focussed their thoughts in the right places rather than focussing on votes.

I fully agree with that but I wouldn't hold my breath re the focussing.

matt_drummer

TMSG said:

Well... the trajectory is clear. We're using fewer units year on year and the SC is going up every year. So when we cross over, perhaps next year if I can believe the Cornwall chaps, I'll open a bottle of bubbly.

The standing charge will always increase, why wouldn't it?

It pays for the infrastructure, things like employees wages which usually increase over time.

I am sure that if or when you were working you would have hoped for or expected pay rises?

QrizB

matt_drummer said:

TMSG said:

I know :-) I pored over those tables before I found your post above. But still, as they include those regional tables already adding just two more columns for the SC and rates wouldn't be terribly complicated and it wouldn't use more paper:-)

I am sorry, I don't understand what the two additional columns would be.
The standing charge and the unit rate per region are already there.
What would they add in another two columns?

With regard to single-rate electricity, Ofgem's tables include the regional annual cap for a zero-unit user (which is the cap on the standing charge) and the regional annual cap for a 3100kWh user (from which you can derive the unit price cap). Neither value includes VAT.

Tables for gas and multi-rate electricity are quoted similarly.

I think TMSG is asking for Ofgem to explicitly quote the daily standing charge and the unit price for each region, including 5% VAT. These would be the two extra columns.

matt_drummer

QrizB said:

Tables for gas and multi-rate electricity are quoted similarly.

I think TMSG is asking for Ofgem to explicitly quote the daily standing charge and the unit price for each region, including 5% VAT. These would be the two extra columns.

I see.

It's a shame they didn't just say that they wanted to see the rates including VAT @ 5%.

Scot_39

TMSG said:

matt_drummer said:

With standing charges at around 50p a day and electricity at 27p per kWh what sort of person gets through each day with the cost of the standing charge exceeding their usage charge? You would have to be using less than 2kWh a day, less than 80 watts an hour on average. That cannot be true for many people?

Somebody using 2kWh of electricity a day would save 37p a day, £135 a year under this system, how many people use 2kWh a day of electricity on average? This would only benefit a tiny number of people.

I can only speak for myself, but I am using around 650-700kWh per year (no typo). We're away from home for around six to seven months and during that time the usage is minimal (around 0.3kWh in summer, a little more in winter). Even when we are home we rarely use more than 2.5kWh per day (this is a gas-heated four-bedroom house with a fridge, a freezer, a smallish TV and two PCs running ~ six to seven hours per day... but we have ruthlessly optimised energy usage. It is doable.)

We have no problem paying a reasonable standing charge but if the standing charge approaches the energy we actually use...

Why associate the standing charge with the cost of monthly or annual bills ?

Do you expect the price of your car to reflect the cost of the petrol you use in a year ?  OR for the cost of petrol to include the car - so pay off the HP or PCP etc.  Its a perhaps ludicrous comparison - but the principle remains.

You need some of the infrastructure whether you import or export 1 kWh or 50 kWh a day.

But for some needing more power - than that standard connection allows - some in larger properties are even having to ugrade their domestic consumption - at their cost - to 3 phase (e.g. to run ASHP rather than gas boilers)

It then gets more complex when aggregate up to grid level demand matching - how many wires and what size of pylons and their voltage rating, how many power plants etc - how big a pipe for gas and pressures / pumping stations etc.

And another part of the problem right now - is the cost of linking up many new or simply expanding renewables generating sites - in remote places - to the markets they will serve. Projects like EGL1 and EGL2 - the latter to carry electricity over 350 miles from Peterhead (and there are other projects to get the power to Peterhead - in first place again 100s of miles - under sea HVDC links and land) to Drax plant Yorkshire. EGL3,4 to follow in planning.

Estimates that grid will need 5x more new links installed in next 7 years than previous 30. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66384672

And it all costs money. And with MPs of various hues - from Green to Blue - including some cabinet ministers joining Nimby's and councils in objections - with demands to shift grid offshore or underground etc - costs are only going to spiral if not careful.

In Ofgem breakdown - as posted above - Just Networks(non-SoLR) is by itself £378 for Oct cap, the average DF SC - £286.

Add in the others / components of others etc (smart, SoLR, policy etc) - and you can see it's split.

You might argue the balance could be different - but ultimately Ofgem isn't there as a social regulator or consumer champion - it's their as a market regulator - to ensure supply.  

And it is govts - past and present - who impose social policy costs and and green levies and costs on consumers / suppliers / generators.

dealyboy

@matt_drummer said:

dealyboy said:

I am a pensioner on a low income (just full state pension) and have a small park home with the only heating from a portable electric radiator. As a Forumite I cut costs if I can and the last two winters I have had what I now believe to have been chilblains for several months (GP has confirmed Beau's lines).

Can I ask, in all seriousness, if the standing charge for electricity was removed would you turn your heating on more?

Or would you use the same amount of electricity and be happy with the extra saving?

It's a genuine question and  I truly don't want to upset you.

I am just interested in how things can be so tight financially that you can't heat your home enough to avoid the health issues.

Do you not heat your home enough to save money generally, for other reasons or just because you don't acually have enough money?

It makes me sad that you are so cold that you have health issues.

I know that there is at least one poster here who suffers the cold and does not heat their home so that they can pay for skiing holidays.

Hello again Matt ...
Thank you for asking and for your concern.

Firstly I think this went a little off topic on an SC slalom (of which I was a part) as has happened before and I hope @MSE_Andrew was OK with this.

Can I ask, in all seriousness, if the standing charge for electricity was removed would you turn your heating on more?

No, not for that reason alone, but if the prices were as they were two years ago I would be more extravagant with my oil filled radiator. To be honest, as I've said elsewhere, I think I overdid it last winter and I will be using electricity liberally next winter to keep overnight temperatures to a minimum of 15C, although I am an @HertsLad superfan.

It's a genuine question and  I truly don't want to upset you.

I know. How could I be upset by a question of concern? Thank you.

I am just interested in how things can be so tight financially that you can't heat your home enough to avoid the health issues.

A couple of things there:
Firstly I didn't know what I was suffering from until this year, and it's still not certain that it was chilblains but the pharmacist thought that it was. My bloods are fine and I've been advised by my GP to make an appointment perhaps in November if it returns. I really didn't think the temperature was extreme, perhaps down to 8C to 10C during the cold spells, but I was 'heating the person'. I think typing on my laptop did not help, actually I think I was responding to some of your posts  .
The other thing is things are not that tight, although I have a low income, I am frugal and a spendthrift. If I can afford bird food and catfood, and whisky! things are not that bad. I really cannot complain. Again as I mentioned elsewhere the non-means tested support (EBSS, WFA etc) I received actually exceeded my electricity expenditure.

Do you not heat your home enough to save money generally, for other reasons or just because you don't acually have enough money?

The first reason, however this will be changing.

It makes me sad that you are so cold that you have health issues.

Thank you Matt. I have to own up that it was mostly self inflicted. I suppose it's a lesson people of my age learn quite quickly that we are not as young as we were and the body is more vulnerable.

I know that there is at least one poster here who suffers the cold and does not heat their home so that they can pay for skiing holidays.

No that's not me. I live well generally but mainly focus on essentials, I am not extravagant and do not indulge in luxuries, and I wouldn't be able to afford the lifestyle that would be considered 'comfortable'.

One of the reasons for my post was in response to this one by @[Deleted User] ... https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80255780/#Comment_80255780 an example of a low income low user not on means tested benefits due to the 'cliff edge' which excludes many. It was also to offer an alternative to the all or nothing standing charge debate.

matt_drummer

@dealyboy

I'm pleased you are OK and happy to hear that you will be a bit more considerate of your health this year.

Yes, it was HertsLad I was referring to.

To their credit they never complained, it just sounded miserable to me but if they were happy it is up to them.

Thank you for replying to my rather personal questions, I really appreciate it and I think others will too.

Alnat1

@dealyboy Off topic again but regarding the chilblains, I have quite poor circulation and get them quite easily on my hands if I'm not careful. First happened when I was pushing a pram about regularly in winter, so not only something that happens as we get older.

If you are getting them on the backs of your fingers when you're typing, try fingerless gloves or wrist warmers (as you need to still see the keys) I use a mouse and it's that hand that suffers with me, so I put a towel over my hand. Rest of me is warm enough at 17-18C with a throw over my legs, you might find it's the same for you.

I'm pretty careful about wearing gloves outdoors too, as soon as it gets a bit chilly (glove liners work just as well) all my coat pockets have a pair handy.

dealyboy

@Alnat1 said:

@dealyboy Off topic again but regarding the chilblains, I have quite poor circulation and get them quite easily on my hands if I'm not careful. First happened when I was pushing a pram about regularly in winter, so not only something that happens as we get older.

If you are getting them on the backs of your fingers when you're typing, try fingerless gloves or wrist warmers (as you need to still see the keys) I use a mouse and it's that hand that suffers with me, so I put a towel over my hand. Rest of me is warm enough at 17-18C with a throw over my legs, you might find it's the same for you.

I'm pretty careful about wearing gloves outdoors too, as soon as it gets a bit chilly (glove liners work just as well) all my coat pockets have a pair handy.

Yes indeed it is the backs of my fingers on my mouse hand ... thank you very much for the suggestions.

Honestly I didn't know what it was and couldn't for the life of me work out what I was touching only with my right hand, I had thought it most likely to have been contact dermatitis with the itchiness.