APCOA Railway Car Park - Penalty Notice

lily10

Hi, 
Situation:
As the registered keeper (but not the driver) I received a 'Penalty Notice' by post (date of issue 31st July) for parking at a Railway Station on Sunday 23rd July for the Offence of 'Use of Private Car park without making a valid payment'
The driver dropped someone at the station and then parked in a bay due to feeling very unwell. They were there for 37 mins which exceeded the 20 free min period and not realising that payment was even due on a Sunday sat in the car until feeling well enough to drive on again.

The Penalty Notice also states that the Penalty Notice has been issued as the vehicle "..was parked on Railway Assets ( Railway Property) in breach of the Railway Byelaws ( ("Byelaws") as displayed in the signage at the location."

Clarification Please
I have read the Newbies thread and many of the APCOA threads - really useful so thank you.

Q1) Should I complain as per Plan A (Newbies thread) to the TOC as well as submitting the appeal to APCOA? For some reason I remember reading in one of the threads not to do this when the penalty charge is on railway land/ involves byelaws but do this later (but I cannot find the thread) 

Q2) Having read some incredibly lengthy appeals when at POPLA appeal ( which it seems it inevitably always goes to) why the need to mention signage, cameras etc etc etc when the key overriding point it seems to me is that they cannot prosecute you on the basis of this point copied below (taken from one of the threads)

As far as byelaws are concerned, a vehicle keeper can never be held liable. The driver can, and the owner may, but never the keeper, and the law says they are three different people.

In the Penalty Charge received as Keeper it states:
"...For further clarification, the owner, in relation to a vehicle means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which .....blah blah XXXXXXXXXXXXX blah .....is presumed (unless the contrary is proved) to be the person in whose name the vehicle is registered"

So...as it doesn't say that the onus of that proof is on the keeper then the onus of proof would surely be back to APCOA?

So my question is - why all the other lengthy stuff in the appeal at POPLA stage?

Many thanks for your help - hugely appreciated.

B789

Belt & braces.

Just do everything mentioned in the Newbies/FAQ thread to time this out.

Umkomaas

If the APCOA Penalty Notice threatens taking you to the Magistrates Court if the penalty remains unpaid, why not fire off the suggested short challenge I drafted in the following thread. 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6462189/im-back-this-time-with-a-rail-station-penalty-notice/p2

That should make them realise that you know that you know their game and you're not going to be rolled-over by their untruthfulness. APCOA cannot prosecute through the Mags, only the TOC can do that. Even if the TOC wins, they don't get a penny from the fine (that goes to the Exchequer), nor any costs.  There's nothing in it for them.

lily10

Hi
I'm about to submit my appeal to APCOA as per the template etc.( day 26)
Is it worth me also saying that the driver was actually too unwell to drive? This is the truth as the driver had dropped someone at the station and then felt too unwell to drive, so stayed in the car park until they felt well enough to drive on. If APCOA have cameras recording they may well see the driver being physically sick in the car park!
Thoughts please as to whether this is worth mentioning or should I keep it more formal eg exactly as the template?
Thank you

Umkomaas

lily10 said:

Hi
I'm about to submit my appeal to APCOA as per the template etc.( day 26)
Is it worth me also saying that the driver was actually too unwell to drive? This is the truth as the driver had dropped someone at the station and then felt too unwell to drive, so stayed in the car park until they felt well enough to drive on. If APCOA have cameras recording they may well see the driver being physically sick in the car park!
Thoughts please as to whether this is worth mentioning or should I keep it more formal eg exactly as the template?
Thank you

They have no interest in what happened, neither do they have cameras recording people - leave it out.  Day 26 strategy relates to tickets placed on windscreens, not to postal tickets, but no harm done. 

Are you not using the appeal I suggested in my post on 14 August above? 

Coupon-mad

Do the appeal on DAY 28.

Do all appeal stages on the last day.

The point is to time it out after 6 months!

lily10

Umkomaas said:

lily10 said:

Hi
I'm about to submit my appeal to APCOA as per the template etc.( day 26)
Is it worth me also saying that the driver was actually too unwell to drive? This is the truth as the driver had dropped someone at the station and then felt too unwell to drive, so stayed in the car park until they felt well enough to drive on. If APCOA have cameras recording they may well see the driver being physically sick in the car park!
Thoughts please as to whether this is worth mentioning or should I keep it more formal eg exactly as the template?
Thank you

They have no interest in what happened, neither do they have cameras recording people - leave it out.  Day 26 strategy relates to tickets placed on windscreens, not to postal tickets, but no harm done. 

Are you not using the appeal I suggested in my post on 14 August above? 

Thank you - so do I not use any of the blue template wording but simply say:

“Dear APCOA

Unequivocally, the Penalty Notice will remain unpaid, therefore please serve private criminal prosecution proceedings without delay so your entitlement can be tested. Please confirm that you are the Train Operating Company.

Yours faithfully”

The above makes sense to me seeing as it is ultimately the key point in why APCOA can't prosecute - so why bother with lengthy appeals etc apart from what COUPON-MAD says about timing out after 6 months,so presumably the more points you raise, the more points they have to respond to...more time passes?

But essentially I'm inclined to go with what you said Umkomaas unless anyone advises differently here?

Thank you - I so appreciate this forum and the advise.

Umkomaas

Whichever appeal you use, the likelihood is that APCOA will reject it. But, the appeal above does tell APCOA that you're one step ahead of their game and you know their threats are totally empty!

lily10

Back again for some advice please.
As expected I lost the APCOA appeal and am due to submit the POPLA appeal this week.
Re the issue of signage. The station is Yeovil Junction which is about a 2 hour drive away so not possible to visit to look at the signage and take relevant photos (the driver and passenger say that they don't even remember seeing any signs).Google Streetview is showing images from 2017 so I am a bit limited in what I can send in. The Streetview images show very poor signage imo but of course that may have changed. Is it worth submitting these?
Thank you

Coupon-mad

This week?  Do it as late as possible.

POPLA Codes last 33 days mot 28. 

lily10

Coupon-mad said:

This week?  Do it as late as possible.

POPLA Codes last 33 days mot 28. 

I received the notification of lost APCOA appeal on 6th Sept so will be submitting the POPLA appeal on day 33 as you suggest. I've got it all together but the only part that needs some substance is re signage as per my post above.