Debt Collection Letter received but not original PCN

pcnpain

Hi all,

Online searches relating to this bear precious little fruit do I’ve had to resort to posting a new thread.

I have received a debt recovery letter on behalf of APCOA at Heathrow Airpot for the total of £150 for an unpaid drop off charge in May 2023. 

The letter states “you may have not responded to previous letters due to an oversight”. However, the issue surrounds the fact that we never received the letter(s). I would imagine the chances of not receiving multiple letters from one organisation to be slim. This means we have missed the reduced penalty period, and/ or the right to appeal. 

Upon contacting Debt Recovery Plus they state that there is no need for APCOA to provide proof of postage until the issue is taken to court and which point we may well be liable for even more costs than the £150.

Is there a precedent surrounding this type of issue? Online searches don’t reveal much in terms of similar cases. Whilst I concede the penalty was correctly issued, I have grievances with the fact the original penalty was never received by myself, the driver, or my mother, the registered keeper. 

Who is the onus on to provide proof that letters were/ weren’t received? I would hope that if the original penalty was found to have never been issued then the whole issue would be null and void as the charge was not received within 14 days of the alleged contravention.

Thanks in advance,
Frustrated

fisherjim

Stop contacting debt collectors they are powerless idiots that will tell you anything, you would know that had you read the newbies thread on here first.

Why do you "concede the penalty was correctly issued" I doubt that very much, if this was in the £5 drop off zone for which there are dozens of threads on here.

Forget about the proof of postage, is your V5 document up to date with current address with the DVLA, have you moved? That is the most usual reason that these notices don't arrive.

AS for APCOA  they may make threats like their tame debt collectors but nothing will come of it and any threat on this non relevant land (covered by airport bylaws) will time out in November anyway.

Sit tight and stop phoning Muppets.

Umkomaas

APCOA don't do court. Surely DRP aren't misleading you?

YankeeBrit

You could be liable for an actual fine of up to £1,000 for not keeping your V5C logbook details up to date. If you had kept them up to date, when you received the first PCN for your admitted transgression, all you had to do was appeal with the following:

I am the registered keeper. I was not the driver. Your NTK is non-PoFA compliant. APCOA has no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

APCOA cannot hold a registered keeper liable. As a matter of fact and law, APCOA (as a longstanding BPA Parking operator) will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because this is not 'relevant land'. If the Airport wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, which would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely, but not only is that not pleaded, but it is also not legally possible because APCOA is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty.

It is created for APCOA’s own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and APCOA has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only. The registered keeper was not that driver and cannot be presumed to have been, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency.

This would have resulted in APCOA cancelling the PCN.

Now, you have to suffer the wave of debt collector letters, which, if you'd bothered to read the Newbies/FAQ thread, you would know to never, ever, initiate any contact with. You have done so. Did you admit to being the driver?

Luckily for you, now that you know you should not contact useless debt collectors, you should cease any more contact. It is highly unlikely that APCOA will initiate legal action and eventually, they will try elsewhere for their "mugs" to pay into their scam.

Go read the newbies/FAQ thread and come back if you ever receive a LoC. They have up to 6 years to initiate a claim. Also, update your V5C immediately. You may also want to instruct the DPO at APCOA to "erase" your old address and update it with your current address. If you move within the next 6 years, you should do the same again. If you don't, they could try and issue a claim to an address you no longer reside at and get a CCJ by default if they were so inclined.

Coupon-mad

Just ignore it now. Stop taking the bait of DRPlus letters.  See the 4th post of the NEWBIES thread.

BUT  we sincerely hope that you are au fait with the need to respond to the private parking draft Impact Assessment this month?

You want to help us change the law?

To be clear, we are nearly there; it's not a petition or some weak campaign, it's a final push on a law already passed, to cap the £PCN levels and ban the fake DRA fees.

The Government has a Call for Evidence open right now.

We are also wanting photos of unmanaged car parks and Asda/Tesco/Sainsburys £70 signs or Hospital £50 or £60 deterrents (or car parks with broken signs) near you, please.

All discussed and explained here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6463361/dluhc-private-parking-code-government-launches-call-for-evidence-discussion-thread/p6

pcnpain

YankeeBrit said:

You could be liable for an actual fine of up to £1,000 for not keeping your V5C logbook details up to date. If you had kept them up to date, when you received the first PCN for your admitted transgression, all you had to do was appeal with the following:

I am the registered keeper. I was not the driver. Your NTK is non-PoFA compliant. APCOA has no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

APCOA cannot hold a registered keeper liable. As a matter of fact and law, APCOA (as a longstanding BPA Parking operator) will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because this is not 'relevant land'. If the Airport wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, which would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely, but not only is that not pleaded, but it is also not legally possible because APCOA is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty.

It is created for APCOA’s own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and APCOA has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only. The registered keeper was not that driver and cannot be presumed to have been, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency.

This would have resulted in APCOA cancelling the PCN.

Now, you have to suffer the wave of debt collector letters, which, if you'd bothered to read the Newbies/FAQ thread, you would know to never, ever, initiate any contact with. You have done so. Did you admit to being the driver?

Thanks YankeeBrit. Some content in there is helpful but you seem to have leapt to many conclusions. The above poster simply speculated that the V5C details are not up to date, I am delighted to inform you that they are up to date which makes the lack of contact all the more puzzling. No admissions have been made surrounding the parking who/ who wasn’t driving, simply querying why no contact from APCOA was received prior to the DRP letter.

As originally stated the opportunity never arose to appeal the PCN as the letter wasn’t received, thereby invalidating any opportunity to use the template above. With the lack of reading detail on your part, to use the phrase “If you’d bothered to read” seems slightly hypocritical. Nevertheless, thank you for your help.

pcnpain

fisherjim said:

Stop contacting debt collectors they are powerless idiots that will tell you anything, you would know that had you read the newbies thread on here first.

Why do you "concede the penalty was correctly issued" I doubt that very much, if this was in the £5 drop off zone for which there are dozens of threads on here.

Forget about the proof of postage, is your V5 document up to date with current address with the DVLA, have you moved? That is the most usual reason that these notices don't arrive.

AS for APCOA  they may make threats like their tame debt collectors but nothing will come of it and any threat on this non relevant land (covered by airport bylaws) will time out in November anyway.

Sit tight and stop phoning Muppets.

Unfortunately I have tried the “no contact” approach in the past for a private PCN which resulted in a CCJ being filed. I am wary of this happening again so what’s to stop the same being repeated? 

Coupon-mad

I think it's worth putting in a complaint.  Same advice as I gave this person:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80214348/#Comment_80214348

These missing PCNs are becoming a bit of a pattern with certain PPCs and in particular, those who use DR Plus. Coincidence?.

pcnpain

Thanks @Coupon-mad. I’ll look into it

fisherjim

pcnpain said:

fisherjim said:

Stop contacting debt collectors they are powerless idiots that will tell you anything, you would know that had you read the newbies thread on here first.

Why do you "concede the penalty was correctly issued" I doubt that very much, if this was in the £5 drop off zone for which there are dozens of threads on here.

Forget about the proof of postage, is your V5 document up to date with current address with the DVLA, have you moved? That is the most usual reason that these notices don't arrive.

AS for APCOA  they may make threats like their tame debt collectors but nothing will come of it and any threat on this non relevant land (covered by airport bylaws) will time out in November anyway.

Sit tight and stop phoning Muppets.

Unfortunately I have tried the “no contact” approach in the past for a private PCN which resulted in a CCJ being filed. I am wary of this happening again so what’s to stop the same being repeated? 

Yes but you obviously didn't get that right no contact with debt collectors is still the right approach you won't get anywhere with them they are only after money.

The wrong approach is to ignore a court claim which you apparently did to your cost, and no one on here will tell you to do that, but you won't get a court claim for this one as APCOA don't do court.