Household energy conundrum

Ectophile

Gerry1 said:

What's GSH?

Good Sense of Humour.  But I suspect it was meant to be Gas Sentral Heating.

MultiFuelBurner

Gerry1 said:

Welcome to the forum.

If you want the lowest bills get gas central heating.  If you want to go green get a heat pump, but you'll need deep pockets to install and run it, and it will probably make the property harder to sell.

Make sre you've registered with the existing supplier and given the opening meter readings.

As this thread has popped up again

@gerry1 do you still believe houses with ASHP will be harder to sell?

All the new ones round here are sold with heat pumps and even the up to 10 year old houses no real evidence on that primary property selling website that there is stigma with ASHP?

Gerry1

@MultiFuelBurner I wouldn't rule it out completely if I were buying a property and found a dream one, but if two were similar I'd always buy the one with GCH.  Only Greta would baulk at GCH, whereas many potential buyers are likely to be wary of an ASHP, especially if they've never had one.

I'm not intrinsically against HPs, in fact I quite like the principle of getting something for nothing, and although the climate change people can be a right pain I fear they're probably correct; we can't keep pumping CO2 out like there's no tomorrow.  You only have to look at the storms, hurricanes, wildfires and record temperatures to realise that something's not quite right.

If I couldn't have gas/oil I'd go for a GSHP: I'd be wary of an ASHP freezing up and struggling with a prolonged Beast from the East and ending with with a dismal output and COP.

For me the problem is heat pumps are still in their infancy, rather like pure EVs; (that's why I have a self-charging hybrid to get the best of both worlds, great MPG but no range anxiety, no need to plan fuel stops and five minutes to fill up anywhere anytime).

When heat pumps are completely silent, heat up a cold house as fast as gas and cost less to install and run, then I might well take the plunge.  In the meantime, I suspect I'm not the only one who prefers to watch and wait rather than be an early adopter.

Qyburn

Gerry1 said:

When heat pumps are completely silent, heat up a cold house as fast as gas and cost less to install and run, then I might well take the plunge.  In the meantime, I suspect I'm not the only one who prefers to watch and wait rather than be an early adopter.

And from an ethical point of view, when the grid stops being reliant on gas for variable and incremental load. At the moment nuclear and renewables run flat out and can't be increased to accommodate load variations. So in effect any additional electrical load, like someone replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump, is met by burning gas.

MultiFuelBurner

Qyburn said:

Gerry1 said:

When heat pumps are completely silent, heat up a cold house as fast as gas and cost less to install and run, then I might well take the plunge.  In the meantime, I suspect I'm not the only one who prefers to watch and wait rather than be an early adopter.

And from an ethical point of view, when the grid stops being reliant on gas for variable and incremental load. At the moment nuclear and renewables run flat out and can't be increased to accommodate load variations. So in effect any additional electrical load, like someone replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump, is met by burning gas.

Is this proven and a fact?

This is the mix in the last year 36.1% fossil fuels.

Is that significantly up on the previous year with the increase of EV's and ASHP in new builds?

QrizB

MultiFuelBurner said:

Qyburn said:

So in effect any additional electrical load, like someone replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump, is met by burning gas.

Is this proven and a fact?

It's neither proven nor a fact, it's just an opinion that gets trotted our from time to time.

When I turn my kettle on, there's no immediate response from the grid; no-one opens a control valve at a power station to increase the flow of fuel to accommodate that extra kilowatt. All that happens is the grid voltage sags a tiny fraction of a volt so that every other resistive appliance uses a few watts less.

The same happens with an individual heat pump or EV charger.

Qyburn said:

At the moment nuclear and renewables run flat out

Except when there's too much generation and renewables are abated, or when we sell surplus renewable power to mainland Europe, or buy excess nuclear & wind from Europe in return.

And if you look at the Drax charts (link), there's a floor to our gas generation of something like 5GW that we rarely drop below. This gas generation is providing inertia and grid stability. There are projects underway to replace those capabilities with systems that don't burn gas, some of them repurposed fossil fuel generators (example), which will make that floor lower.

MultiFuelBurner said:

This is the mix in the last year 36.1% fossil fuels.
Is that significantly up on the previous year with the increase of EV's and ASHP in new builds?

I suspect that you already know that the proportion of UK electricity from fossil fuels is falling year on year, and has been for the past decade+.

MultiFuelBurner

QrizB said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

Qyburn said:

So in effect any additional electrical load, like someone replacing a gas boiler with a heat pump, is met by burning gas.

Is this proven and a fact?

It's neither proven nor a fact, it's just an opinion that gets trotted our from time to time.

When I turn my kettle on, there's no immediate response from the grid; no-one opens a control valve at a power station to increase the flow of fuel to accommodate that extra kilowatt. All that happens is the grid voltage sags a tiny fraction of a volt so that every other resistive appliance uses a few watts less.

The same happens with an individual heat pump or EV charger.

Qyburn said:

At the moment nuclear and renewables run flat out

Except when there's too much generation and renewables are abated, or when we sell surplus renewable power to mainland Europe, or buy excess nuclear & wind from Europe in return.

And if you look at the Drax charts, there's a floor to our gas generation of something like 5GW that we rarely drop below. This gas generation is providing inertia and grid stability. There are projects underway to replace those capabilities with systems that don't burn gas, which will make that floor lower.

MultiFuelBurner said:

This is the mix in the last year 36.1% fossil fuels.
Is that significantly up on the previous year with the increase of EV's and ASHP in new builds?

I suspect that you already know that the proportion of UK electricity fromm fossil fuels is falling year on year, and has been for the past decade+.

Indeed I was leading the horse to the water so to speak.

Let the penny drop of its own accord. 

chris_n

Often when there is a need to keep the voltage up it is achieved by letting some water run through a Welsh mountain, this is then pumped back at a convenient time without using any gas at all.

EssexHebridean

Surely though, the proportion of available renewable generation also increases year on year now, and that in itself would drive down the percentage requirement for reliance on fossil fuels? Are we actually using more electricity now than we were say, 5 years ago, when ASHPs and EVs were far rarer? And in turn, has gas use dropped a proportionate amount in comparison? 

And yes, I’m fully aware that the questions I have posed are probably ones I could find an answer to if I knew where to look, I’m guessing that a number of folk here have that sort of information readily to hand though!