Tesco Mobile refusing to my Galaxy Z 4 Fold and now in deadlock

simonbamford

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pushpull said:

Why would you not want the manufacturer themselves to repair it over a third party?

If they don't have the equipment to repair it they don't have the equipment to repair it. It seems like you're arguing the difference between you sending it to Tesco and then them sending it to Samsung, vs you just sending it to Samsung.

I suspect you'll lose if this goes to CISAS.

Yes pretty much.

The main difference I can see is when the consumer seeks a remedy under the CRA if the goods still do not conform after one repair/replace then the consumer may reject/seek a price reduction.

If a repair untaken by the OP dealing with Samsung directly wasn't viewed as a remedy provided by the trader this affects the above position.

Equally if OP hands the phone to Tesco in store then whatever happens to it in transit to and from Samsung as well as whilst in their care would be Tesco's problem rather than the OP's.

A company the size of Tesco should have the correct processes in place to provide the consumer with a remedy.

OP if you paid with credit typically you have S75 cover, who provided the credit?

I would have been happy sending it to Samsung in the first instance but I have now lost 3 weeks from when I stopped using the phone trying to get it to Tesco Mobile to repair it. 

Tesco provided the credit so not a credit card. I thought S75 would not apply in this situation. 

Okell said:

Yes, your consumer rights are against Tesco, but If you returned it to Tesco for repair under your consumer rights, all they would do is send it to Samsung for repair.

What is the problem with you sending it to Samsung direct, thereby cutting out the middleman?

Tesco don't appear to be denying you your consumer rights as they seem to have already told you that the repair will be free.

If you are concerned about protecting your consumer rights against Tesco under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I would suggest that all you require is some sort of written acknowledgement from Tesco that they are meeting their obligations under that legislation by asking you to send the 'phone to Samsung for a free repair.  So long as Samsung know that as well, I don't understand the problem.

You say you are stubborn and that Tesco are now sending you a deadlock letter.  Are you familiar with the phrases "Cutting your nose off to spite your face" and "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"?

NB - I'm sure you are aware that after six months from purchase the onus is on you to establish that the cause of the fault or failure was present when you bought it, and is not due to damage caused by you or misuse.  Can you do so?

There would be no problem with that if that is how the situation presented in the first place however at the moment it is currently with Tesco Mobile and I have not had use of this phone for 3 weeks and now I am expected to get it back and organise another collection and repair. 

To be fair though Tesco telling me Samsung will do something for free doesn't mean they will. Based on your bottom point Samsung could say it was in fact my fault and then where would that leave me? Samsung, who I don't have a contract but can repair the device saying no, and Tesco Mobile, who I do have the contract with saying yes but can't repair it. 

If this ended up being the case what would you say then? And no I can't prove the fault or failure was there from the beginning at the moment. I would need an engineer to look at that. But Tesco have said it should be free so I would take that as I'm in the clear with them. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

simonbamford said:

Tesco provided the credit so not a credit card. I thought S75 would not apply in this situation. 

@born_again might be able to offer some insight in to this one  

pushpull

simonbamford said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pushpull said:

Why would you not want the manufacturer themselves to repair it over a third party?

If they don't have the equipment to repair it they don't have the equipment to repair it. It seems like you're arguing the difference between you sending it to Tesco and then them sending it to Samsung, vs you just sending it to Samsung.

I suspect you'll lose if this goes to CISAS.

Yes pretty much.

The main difference I can see is when the consumer seeks a remedy under the CRA if the goods still do not conform after one repair/replace then the consumer may reject/seek a price reduction.

If a repair untaken by the OP dealing with Samsung directly wasn't viewed as a remedy provided by the trader this affects the above position.

Equally if OP hands the phone to Tesco in store then whatever happens to it in transit to and from Samsung as well as whilst in their care would be Tesco's problem rather than the OP's.

A company the size of Tesco should have the correct processes in place to provide the consumer with a remedy.

OP if you paid with credit typically you have S75 cover, who provided the credit?

I would have been happy sending it to Samsung in the first instance but I have now lost 3 weeks from when I stopped using the phone trying to get it to Tesco Mobile to repair it. 

Tesco provided the credit so not a credit card. I thought S75 would not apply in this situation. 

Okell said:

Yes, your consumer rights are against Tesco, but If you returned it to Tesco for repair under your consumer rights, all they would do is send it to Samsung for repair.

What is the problem with you sending it to Samsung direct, thereby cutting out the middleman?

Tesco don't appear to be denying you your consumer rights as they seem to have already told you that the repair will be free.

If you are concerned about protecting your consumer rights against Tesco under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I would suggest that all you require is some sort of written acknowledgement from Tesco that they are meeting their obligations under that legislation by asking you to send the 'phone to Samsung for a free repair.  So long as Samsung know that as well, I don't understand the problem.

You say you are stubborn and that Tesco are now sending you a deadlock letter.  Are you familiar with the phrases "Cutting your nose off to spite your face" and "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"?

NB - I'm sure you are aware that after six months from purchase the onus is on you to establish that the cause of the fault or failure was present when you bought it, and is not due to damage caused by you or misuse.  Can you do so?

There would be no problem with that if that is how the situation presented in the first place however at the moment it is currently with Tesco Mobile and I have not had use of this phone for 3 weeks and now I am expected to get it back and organise another collection and repair. 

To be fair though Tesco telling me Samsung will do something for free doesn't mean they will. Based on your bottom point Samsung could say it was in fact my fault and then where would that leave me? Samsung, who I don't have a contract but can repair the device saying no, and Tesco Mobile, who I do have the contract with saying yes but can't repair it. 

If this ended up being the case what would you say then? And no I can't prove the fault or failure was there from the beginning at the moment. I would need an engineer to look at that. But Tesco have said it should be free so I would take that as I'm in the clear with them. 

It depends. If Tesco are just saying "warranty issue speak to Samsung" then you may find Samsung do try and claim it is damaged and refuse to repair it for free. They may have spoken to Samsung who are willing to repair it under warranty, however.

I don't think you're doing yourself any favours here. Tesco have thrown £20 at you which will certainly cover any postage costs. I suspect any adjudicator for an ADR will take a dim view of you digging your heels in over this. ADR's/Ombudsman Services tend to look at fairness, which can work both ways. In this case I think it'll work against you as if Samsung does indeed fix the device FOC you've got the same remedy you'd have got under the CRA.

IF Samsung refuse then Tesco will be left with 3 options. Refuse to do anything as it is user damage, replace or refund. But I think you're jumping the gun at this point.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Okell said:

I might well be wrong but if a consumer approached the seller for a repair and the seller says something like "Sorry - we haven't the tools to do the repair and we'd have to send it off to the manufacturer, but you can send it to them yourself" and the repair failed, I'm pretty certain that that failed repair would be taken as having been made by, or on behalf of, the seller (for the purposes of the CRA).

That's what's generally said on here and it would seem to make sense but what's said on here isn't always correct and the law doesn't always make sense! 

RefluentBeans

simonbamford said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pushpull said:

Why would you not want the manufacturer themselves to repair it over a third party?

If they don't have the equipment to repair it they don't have the equipment to repair it. It seems like you're arguing the difference between you sending it to Tesco and then them sending it to Samsung, vs you just sending it to Samsung.

I suspect you'll lose if this goes to CISAS.

Yes pretty much.

The main difference I can see is when the consumer seeks a remedy under the CRA if the goods still do not conform after one repair/replace then the consumer may reject/seek a price reduction.

If a repair untaken by the OP dealing with Samsung directly wasn't viewed as a remedy provided by the trader this affects the above position.

Equally if OP hands the phone to Tesco in store then whatever happens to it in transit to and from Samsung as well as whilst in their care would be Tesco's problem rather than the OP's.

A company the size of Tesco should have the correct processes in place to provide the consumer with a remedy.

OP if you paid with credit typically you have S75 cover, who provided the credit?

I would have been happy sending it to Samsung in the first instance but I have now lost 3 weeks from when I stopped using the phone trying to get it to Tesco Mobile to repair it. 

Tesco provided the credit so not a credit card. I thought S75 would not apply in this situation. 

Okell said:

Yes, your consumer rights are against Tesco, but If you returned it to Tesco for repair under your consumer rights, all they would do is send it to Samsung for repair.

What is the problem with you sending it to Samsung direct, thereby cutting out the middleman?

Tesco don't appear to be denying you your consumer rights as they seem to have already told you that the repair will be free.

If you are concerned about protecting your consumer rights against Tesco under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I would suggest that all you require is some sort of written acknowledgement from Tesco that they are meeting their obligations under that legislation by asking you to send the 'phone to Samsung for a free repair.  So long as Samsung know that as well, I don't understand the problem.

You say you are stubborn and that Tesco are now sending you a deadlock letter.  Are you familiar with the phrases "Cutting your nose off to spite your face" and "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"?

NB - I'm sure you are aware that after six months from purchase the onus is on you to establish that the cause of the fault or failure was present when you bought it, and is not due to damage caused by you or misuse.  Can you do so?

There would be no problem with that if that is how the situation presented in the first place however at the moment it is currently with Tesco Mobile and I have not had use of this phone for 3 weeks and now I am expected to get it back and organise another collection and repair. 

To be fair though Tesco telling me Samsung will do something for free doesn't mean they will. Based on your bottom point Samsung could say it was in fact my fault and then where would that leave me? Samsung, who I don't have a contract but can repair the device saying no, and Tesco Mobile, who I do have the contract with saying yes but can't repair it. 

If this ended up being the case what would you say then? And no I can't prove the fault or failure was there from the beginning at the moment. I would need an engineer to look at that. But Tesco have said it should be free so I would take that as I'm in the clear with them. 

Have Tesco actually said the phone is faulty, and it’s taken this time for the device to be evidently faulty? Or have just said it’s covered under the warranty. 

Tesco doesn’t provide you the phone warranty. They provide you your consumer rights, as that who you purchased it from. Samsung provide you your warranty but no consumer rights. 

I understand that you want Tesco to deal with it for you. If they’re stating that this is a warranty issue and you should claim under that they are not commenting on the consumer rights issue. 

As others have said, past 6 months YOU have to prove the fault was there (and is inherent) and not through consumer use. I would think that is hard with a screen protector. 

If you choose to choose this hill to die on, and make a point, then I think you’re in a long battle. The easier path is to take it back, and go down the warranty route (withe Samsung). You’re not ‘losing’, and you’ve been offered 2 months air time refund. Why not take it, rather than fighting a battle where the outcome is less known and in the meantime you have a faulty phone you’re paying instalments on. 

born_again

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

simonbamford said:

Tesco provided the credit so not a credit card. I thought S75 would not apply in this situation. 

@born_again might be able to offer some insight in to this one  

Honest answer I have no idea.
Guess you would need to study the T/C of the contract. 

If it was 02 refresh where you have 2 separate contracts, airtime & phone purchase. My thought would be possibly covered under S75.

Jumblebumble

pushpull said:

Why would you not want the manufacturer themselves to repair it over a third party?

If they don't have the equipment to repair it they don't have the equipment to repair it. It seems like you're arguing the difference between you sending it to Tesco and then them sending it to Samsung, vs you just sending it to Samsung.

I suspect you'll lose if this goes to CISAS.

Suppose the OP sends the phone to Samsung and they replace it with a refurb that doesn't work properly
The OP has then lost all rights against Tesco Mobile as they no longer own the phone that Tesco sold them
If Samsung then refuse to engage further stating the warranty is now void  then what?

pushpull

Jumblebumble said:

pushpull said:

Why would you not want the manufacturer themselves to repair it over a third party?

If they don't have the equipment to repair it they don't have the equipment to repair it. It seems like you're arguing the difference between you sending it to Tesco and then them sending it to Samsung, vs you just sending it to Samsung.

I suspect you'll lose if this goes to CISAS.

Suppose the OP sends the phone to Samsung and they replace it with a refurb that doesn't work properly
The OP has then lost all rights against Tesco Mobile as they no longer own the phone that Tesco sold them
If Samsung then refuse to engage further stating the warranty is now void  then what?

I suspect Tesco will have a hard time pulling that one off if they've directed the customer to the manufacturer.

sheramber

simonbamford said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pushpull said:

Why would you not want the manufacturer themselves to repair it over a third party?

If they don't have the equipment to repair it they don't have the equipment to repair it. It seems like you're arguing the difference between you sending it to Tesco and then them sending it to Samsung, vs you just sending it to Samsung.

I suspect you'll lose if this goes to CISAS.

Yes pretty much.

The main difference I can see is when the consumer seeks a remedy under the CRA if the goods still do not conform after one repair/replace then the consumer may reject/seek a price reduction.

If a repair untaken by the OP dealing with Samsung directly wasn't viewed as a remedy provided by the trader this affects the above position.

Equally if OP hands the phone to Tesco in store then whatever happens to it in transit to and from Samsung as well as whilst in their care would be Tesco's problem rather than the OP's.

A company the size of Tesco should have the correct processes in place to provide the consumer with a remedy.

OP if you paid with credit typically you have S75 cover, who provided the credit?

I would have been happy sending it to Samsung in the first instance but I have now lost 3 weeks from when I stopped using the phone trying to get it to Tesco Mobile to repair it. 

Tesco provided the credit so not a credit card. I thought S75 would not apply in this situation. 

Okell said:

Yes, your consumer rights are against Tesco, but If you returned it to Tesco for repair under your consumer rights, all they would do is send it to Samsung for repair.

What is the problem with you sending it to Samsung direct, thereby cutting out the middleman?

Tesco don't appear to be denying you your consumer rights as they seem to have already told you that the repair will be free.

If you are concerned about protecting your consumer rights against Tesco under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I would suggest that all you require is some sort of written acknowledgement from Tesco that they are meeting their obligations under that legislation by asking you to send the 'phone to Samsung for a free repair.  So long as Samsung know that as well, I don't understand the problem.

You say you are stubborn and that Tesco are now sending you a deadlock letter.  Are you familiar with the phrases "Cutting your nose off to spite your face" and "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"?

NB - I'm sure you are aware that after six months from purchase the onus is on you to establish that the cause of the fault or failure was present when you bought it, and is not due to damage caused by you or misuse.  Can you do so?

There would be no problem with that if that is how the situation presented in the first place however at the moment it is currently with Tesco Mobile and I have not had use of this phone for 3 weeks and now I am expected to get it back and organise another collection and repair. 

To be fair though Tesco telling me Samsung will do something for free doesn't mean they will. Based on your bottom point Samsung could say it was in fact my fault and then where would that leave me? Samsung, who I don't have a contract but can repair the device saying no, and Tesco Mobile, who I do have the contract with saying yes but can't repair it. 

If this ended up being the case what would you say then? And no I can't prove the fault or failure was there from the beginning at the moment. I would need an engineer to look at that. But Tesco have said it should be free so I would take that as I'm in the clear with them. 

if Tesco send it to Samsung and Samsung return it to Tesco who then return it you , how long do you think that would  take as opposed to you sending it to Samsung and Samsung returning it to you?

if you had accepted Tesco's proposal in the first place you might have had your phone back by now.

Okell

simonbamford said:

... To be fair though Tesco telling me Samsung will do something for free doesn't mean they will. Based on your bottom point Samsung could say it was in fact my fault and then where would that leave me? Samsung, who I don't have a contract but can repair the device saying no, and Tesco Mobile, who I do have the contract with saying yes but can't repair it. 

If this ended up being the case what would you say then? And no I can't prove the fault or failure was there from the beginning at the moment. I would need an engineer to look at that. But Tesco have said it should be free so I would take that as I'm in the clear with them. 

That's why I said in my first post:

"If you are concerned about protecting your consumer rights against Tesco under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, I would suggest that all you require is some sort of written acknowledgement from Tesco that they are meeting their obligations under that legislation by asking you to send the 'phone to Samsung for a free repair.  So long as Samsung know that as well, I don't understand the problem"

The point is that Tesco would be repairing the 'phone, but Samsung would be doing so on Tesco's behalf, and Tesco wouldn't be doing it themselves.

If Tesco are telling you to send it off to Samsung to meet their (Tesco's) obligations under the CRA then, in my view, you are still fully protected by consumer legislation.  Are they telling you that?  Have you asked them?

Unfortunately I don't know exactly what you've told Tesco (eg did you make it clear you were originally returning it to them under the CRA, or did you say under warranty, or didn't you make it clear?)  and I don't know exactly what Tesco have told you (eg when they said "you should get a free repair" did they mean that you were definitely entitled to a free repair, and if so, did they mean under the CRA or under warranty?).  None of it is very clear.

If Samsung find that the fault was not inherent and had been caused by you you're back where you started unless you can show otherwise.

If Tesco still have the 'phone, have you clarified with them why they (as the retailer) simply won't send it to Samsung themselves?  Have you been so stubborn insisting on them repairing it themselves that they've stopped cooperating with you?  (Yes if they are sending you a deadlock letter).

You asked in your original post if you could take a better "tact".  I'm not sure about that but you could try a more tactful tack...

If I were you I'd go back to Tesco in a non-confrontational manner and say you'd like to start over again and find a mutually acceptable solution.  Say you want to take advantage of your statutory rights under the CRA  (or under warranty if that gives you a better outcome).  Tell them you understand that it needs to go back to Samsung because Tesco can't repair it themselves, but ask them nicely why - as it's currently in their possession - they can't send it direct to Samsung themselves rather than returning it to you for you to send it to Samsung.  If they have a good reason for returning it to you for you to send it to Samsung, tell them that as they sold the 'phone to you then under the CRA they should be responsible (1) for the cost of you sending it to Samsung, and (2) if it gets lost in transit.

That's what I'd try at this stage.  See what others think.

Remember that, if you go down the CRA route, as it's more than 6 months after purchase Tesco might want you to establish that this fault was inherent when it was bought and has not been cause by you (eg misuse or damage caused by you)