Fireplace and party wall?

moneysaver1978

We are due to move shortly to our new house and we are thinking about removing a brick surround and fit in a bioethanol stove.

We think this is a straightforward DIY because we found old listings for the property when there was no brick surround prior (see pics) and it looked like the bricks were added onto the wall:






The current vendors haven't been using the fireplace (just a candle for decoration) as below:


This should be an easy job, right?

Also does this kind of work require or involve party wall agreement?

twopenny

Obviously there was a fire and a chimney there before it was boarded in and it's been opened to make a cosmetic one?

Or does it still go back the depth of the original fire place now?

And may sound unreasonable quesiton but is it still a chimney and does it go right up and exit as an uncovered chimney?

Second photo, was that an actual reall fireplace and used as an open fire?

I'm making a pretend one with a fire screen so ...............

ThisIsWeird

moneysaver1978 said:

The current vendors haven't been using the fireplace (just a candle for decoration) as below:


This should be an easy job, right?

Also does this kind of work require or involve party wall agreement?

Almost certainly a straight forward DIYable task.

A teeny tiny concern would be whether the supporting lintel was removed at any point, possibly replaced when the brick surround was built. Almost certainly there will be a lintel there - and most likely the original one - at or above the opening of the fire - but part of your due diligence task should be to confirm it exists.

This is not a Party Wall matter - you are simply removing a fire surround, albeit a well-stuck type. In the extremely unlikely event that you discover there is no lintel, then you may need to get a pro in to reinstate one, and that is sort of getting to the 'party wall' stage, but hardly...

Will you be ok with the existing size of opening?

Since you'll be hammering and chiselling away, you may wish to warn the neighbours of some noise, but explain it's just a fire surround. (If they are out during the day, do it then...)

FreeBear

moneysaver1978 said:
This should be an easy job, right?

Also does this kind of work require or involve party wall agreement?

Easy job if you are paying someone to do it. If you are planning on DIYing it, be prepared to uncover all sorts of small problems as you go.

And no, this type of work does not need a party wall agreement. You will not be making any structural changes.

subjecttocontract

If you are planning to use the flue then the additional cost of a chimney sweep or the fitting of a liner may be required.

ThisIsWeird

And if not, add an adjustable vent in the roof of the recess to provide a trickle to keep the flue dry. If you look at the first pic, you'll see such a vent just above the skirting. A rain cowl would be a good idea too - stop rain coming down, but allowing air to vent out.

moneysaver1978

Thank you all!

Yes, a chimney exists fitted with a rain cowl and the vendors mentioned that once a while they clean via some kind of vent just inside the fireplace opening. We won't use the flue as coal/wood fire isn't an option for us so looking at a bioethanol stove that do not require a flue (although flue would stay there for ventilation).

As soon as we get the keys, we will stick our heads inside the opening and make a full assessment to double check on the lintel, how the bricks are fixed, whether the mantel is resting on the bricks (or fixed to the wall or part of the lintel?), and whether removing the brick surround would mean a bigger opening (we would love to make it wider).

I personally would love to remove the hearth but might be too much work and expense as it would mean replacing the whole floor!

If after assessment that it is a complex job, we will have to ask around for a builder and do the whole thing. Would making the opening wider and/or new lintel mean getting into the party wall agreement territory? If so, what sort of costs and expertise would we need?

ThisIsWeird

moneysaver1978 said:

Thank you all!

Yes, a chimney exists fitted with a rain cowl and the vendors mentioned that once a while they clean via some kind of vent just inside the fireplace opening. We won't use the flue as coal/wood fire isn't an option for us so looking at a bioethanol stove that do not require a flue (although flue would stay there for ventilation).

As soon as we get the keys, we will stick our heads inside the opening and make a full assessment to double check on the lintel, how the bricks are fixed, whether the mantel is resting on the bricks (or fixed to the wall or part of the lintel?), and whether removing the brick surround would mean a bigger opening (we would love to make it wider).

I personally would love to remove the hearth but might be too much work and expense as it would mean replacing the whole floor!

If after assessment that it is a complex job, we will have to ask around for a builder and do the whole thing. Would making the opening wider and/or new lintel mean getting into the party wall agreement territory? If so, what sort of costs and expertise would we need?

That all sounds positive.

The hearth might be easy to remove as well, but - yes - it's likely to require some replacement floorboards. Unless the person who did the job was a bit of a cowboy, and that's a slab sitting on the existing floor - you never know!

(Tbh, any risk to the sub-floor would have been minimal, so fingers crossed that is what they've done :-)).

Until you look, you won't know how side the lintel is. It'll either be minimal, so catching around 150mm either side of the opening, so that will be the starting limit - or could well be wider, in which you could simply cut away the width until you are encroaching on that 150mm requirement. Worst case is that you'll need to replace it, usually a very simple job for a builder, provided the general chimney breast construction is in decent condition. Chances are they could gently remove a wider row of bricks above the existing lintel, and slip in a P-S concrete lintel. Worst case is that they'd need to remove a brick higher up and place a temp prop there to ensure the breast holds during the work!

But, let's not jump the gun. 

I don't know if this would be considered a PW issue. 

Yes, widening the opening would now be a 'structural' task, but only in a pretty minor sense. Ditto whether it would require Building Control oversight - a 'minor works cert' - no idea. I suspect, BC, yes, and it would also give peace-of-mind to the new owner when selling on. 

Good luck with your hoosie.

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said: Until you look, you won't know how side the lintel is. It'll either be minimal, so catching around 150mm either side of the opening, so that will be the starting limit - or could well be wider, in which you could simply cut away the width until you are encroaching on that 150mm requirement. Worst case is that you'll need to replace it, usually a very simple job for a builder, provided the general chimney breast construction is in decent condition.

With lintels spanning less than 1200mm, you can get away with 100mm supports either side.

To get an idea of how wide the builders opening might be, measure the width of the chimney breast and subtract 400mm (200mm allowance for brickwork either side). The height is often around 560mm, but it is possible to increase this (pushed mine to around 1150mm high).

The brick surround is probably built up off the hearth and the mantle, likely to be just resting on the top - A big hammer should remove most of it without much effort.