Complex Probate materialistic step mother

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Hi,

Hope you're all ok.

I have two questions about my Father's estate, he passed away a decade ago.

He had £20k of premium bonds.

My step mother survived him but her, her daughter and my sisters are executors. We don't know what happened to the Premium Bonds.

We have no contact with her amd had an acrimonious relationship before his passing.

Could she have cashed them in without my sisters permission?

There's a clause in the Will referring to his remaining assests should be put in trust, and another clause in legalese that appears to contridict that the executors/trustees don't distribute it but it all goes to her.

Secondly,

The property they shared was held as TIC with the appropriate restriction on the LR entry.

His Will refers to the property being held in Trust but as far as we know there's no deed of trust and she is listed as the sole owner.

Shouldn't the trustees be listed too?
How do we find out if there's a declaration of trust?

Thanks

bobster2

The term "held in trust" does not necessarily mean an enduring trust of some sort was established - you need to check the wording. When administering an estate all executors hold the assets in trust for the beneficiaries of the will (during the period of administration there is essentially a "will trust".

So a fairly typical will - in which someone leaves everything to their spouse - will still refer to the executors holding the assets in trust during the period of administration (i.e. the executors are the trustees).

Once all assets have been distributed to the beneficiaries - the will trust has been wound up.

Keep_pedalling

You questions should really be addresses to the executors. They should have dealt with the PBs at the time. If we are talking about a life interest trust then this would have been set up be the will no need for a deed of trust. This would make your step mother the beneficial owner, the legal owner of your father’s share but legal ownership remains with the trust. There should still be a restriction on the property. 

Did your sisters actually get involved in administering the estate or did they just let your step mother do it all?

Marcon

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Hi,

Hope you're all ok.

I have two questions about my Father's estate, he passed away a decade ago.

He had £20k of premium bonds.

My step mother survived him but her, her daughter and my sisters are executors. We don't know what happened to the Premium Bonds.

We have no contact with her amd had an acrimonious relationship before his passing.

Could she have cashed them in without my sisters permission?

There's a clause in the Will referring to his remaining assests should be put in trust, and another clause in legalese that appears to contridict that the executors/trustees don't distribute it but it all goes to her.

Secondly,

The property they shared was held as TIC with the appropriate restriction on the LR entry.

His Will refers to the property being held in Trust but as far as we know there's no deed of trust and she is listed as the sole owner.

Shouldn't the trustees be listed too?
How do we find out if there's a declaration of trust?

Thanks

If your father died a decade ago, I wonder if there is anything in particular which has sparked your question now, or is it just one of those niggling things that has finally niggled enough to push you into posting?

Bluenunn_in_the_north

bobster2 said:

The term "held in trust" does not necessarily mean an enduring trust of some sort was established - you need to check the wording. When administering an estate all executors hold the assets in trust for the beneficiaries of the will (during the period of administration there is essentially a "will trust".

So a fairly typical will - in which someone leaves everything to their spouse - will still refer to the executors holding the assets in trust during the period of administration (i.e. the executors are the trustees).

Once all assets have been distributed to the beneficiaries - the will trust has been wound up.

Thanks for the input.

The Will is quite an ambiguous and contradictory document which is poorly composed, hence the confusion.

Lawyers have looked at it and agreed too. It appears that a declaration of trust may not have been formally established for the property. My sister is an executor and trustee and is going to search her records but cannot recall if she signed a deed of trust.

We just fear that she may change her Will, dis-inherit us and potentially move out, downsize and pocket the difference in profit thus reducing my Dad’s half share of the property assest.

If a trust is in operation then she cannot sell without my sisters permission.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Marcon said:

Bluenunn_in_the_north said:

Hi,

Hope you're all ok.

I have two questions about my Father's estate, he passed away a decade ago.

He had £20k of premium bonds.

My step mother survived him but her, her daughter and my sisters are executors. We don't know what happened to the Premium Bonds.

We have no contact with her amd had an acrimonious relationship before his passing.

Could she have cashed them in without my sisters permission?

There's a clause in the Will referring to his remaining assests should be put in trust, and another clause in legalese that appears to contridict that the executors/trustees don't distribute it but it all goes to her.

Secondly,

The property they shared was held as TIC with the appropriate restriction on the LR entry.

His Will refers to the property being held in Trust but as far as we know there's no deed of trust and she is listed as the sole owner.

Shouldn't the trustees be listed too?
How do we find out if there's a declaration of trust?

Thanks

If your father died a decade ago, I wonder if there is anything in particular which has sparked your question now, or is it just one of those niggling things that has finally niggled enough to push you into posting?

Hi, this has been dragging on for a decade, his anniversary recently, and we've let it drift for too long. It appears she's going to live forever so periodically we review the situation.

It's been a thorn in our side with no clarity, for many years.

We saw a lawyer recently as a freebie.

Thanks

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Keep_pedalling said:

You questions should really be addresses to the executors. They should have dealt with the PBs at the time. If we are talking about a life interest trust then this would have been set up be the will no need for a deed of trust. This would make your step mother the beneficial owner, the legal owner of your father’s share but legal ownership remains with the trust. There should still be a restriction on the property. 

Did your sisters actually get involved in administering the estate or did they just let your step mother do it all?

Hi,

I should have saiid sister, not plural. At the time I assumed she dealt with the execution of probate along with SM and SS. I cannot recall as I was pretty grief stricken.

I'm  going to get her on the case soon.There is a Form A restricton on HMLR entry but she is listed as the sole legal proprietor, no trustees.

The Will states she has a right to occupy for life.

I hear what you're saying wrt PBs.


The SM doesn't even pay her respects to his resting place, 5 mins away.

Thank you...

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Think I've made some clarification progress.

Malthusian

The Will states she has a right to occupy for life.

You said earlier that the Will says "it all goes to her." You need to find out which is correct.

As bobster2 said, a reference to assets being "held in trust" may be standard legalese in a Will. Your father's share in the property is only held by a life interest trust if the Will specifically says so. 

Can you copy and paste exactly what the Will says about the "trust" and "right to occupy for life" minus any personal details?

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Malthusian said:

The Will states she has a right to occupy for life.

You said earlier that the Will says "it all goes to her." You need to find out which is correct.

As bobster2 said, a reference to assets being "held in trust" may be standard legalese in a Will. Your father's share in the property is only held by a life interest trust if the Will specifically says so. 

Can you copy and paste exactly what the Will says about the "trust" and "right to occupy for life" minus any personal details?

Hi,

Just to clarify when I said that it 'all goes to her' I was specifically referring to the PBs, not my father's TIC share of the property assest, which is 50/50.

Yes the Will does state that she has a right to occupy for her whole life, LIT, there's a Form A restricton (TIC) on the HMLR entry.

I was thinking of putting exerpt of the Will up but only have an image copy.

I'll see what I can do.

I think I've made progress on why there is no formal Form B restriction (Deed of Trust), as she had an outstanding mortgage at the time and the lender would not grant permission.

Thanks for the input.

Bluenunn_in_the_north

Hi, this about a 1/3 of the Will. If you need more, I'll do the rest.

Thanks