ECP NTK for overstaying when store was closed

superworm

Hi,
A letter dated 07 Jul 23 was received by the registered keeper. 
As per the letter the alleged over stay occurred at Sainsbury Orpington on Sunday 02 Jul 2023 evening between 7 and 9 pm (The store closes at 4 pm on Sundays).
The letter was received on 17th July by post. (15 days from date of alleged event).

Before the registered keeper drafts an appeal with ECP, can anyone kindly help spot any issues with this NTK please?

The signage was definitely unclear about the 2 hr free stay limit only being available when the store is open. The stay was 1h:59m and apparently max permitted stay is 10 mins when the store is closed. 

Many thanks in advance. 

KeithP

You have shown us all your vehicle's registration mark.

Send the blue text template appeal easily found in the second post of the NEWBIES thread.

superworm

Thanks @KeithP
With this template, which is on the NEWBIES thread, I do have a few questions:

1. They did provide images of the vehicle, so suppose  need to remove that line? (Will keep the line regarding close up actual photo of the sign at location)
2. There was no payment done, nor a machine involved, so suspect that paragraph goes?
3. It is an allegation of overstay because of the store being closed, if it were to be open, then the driver was within the 2 hr limit

Thanks for the help 

--------

Re PCN number: 

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

KeithP

I would just send it.
It really doesn't matter what it says, most parking companies will reject it anyway. You are just going through the motions.

On the other hand, there is a good chance that ECP will recognise the appeal indicating that you are getting help at MSE forums and may well put it on the 'too difficult' pile.

B789

Either way, ECP are not litigious. Just go through the motions of PLAN Band Plan C. You should also try Plan A, even if the store was closed. Explain that as a customer, although not on that day, you don't expect to receive a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company for an alleged breach of contract when that contract is not clear. Also, complain to your MP.

superworm

I've just submitted the appeal online with the above template. Will post further update. Thank you both so much!

superworm

Hi, is it usual for them to not respond for this long? I haven't had a response back from them yet.

Umkomaas

superworm said:

Hi, is it usual for them to not respond for this long? I haven't had a response back from them yet.

They have 35 days to respond, and most take that amount of time. It will be rejected, but with that you will receive your POPLA code where a good appeal can see the end of this. At POPLA, ECP have a weak point - their signage, which fails to prominently show the parking charge for breaching the contract. It is therefore important you get yourself some good photos of the signs on site, taken in similar light conditions to those on the parking event date. 

You will see a clutch of POPLA decisions going against ECP in the POPLA Decisions Announcement near the top of the forum thread index, first page. You need to read (probably) the last 10-12 pages. Don't start at the beginning of that thread - it's over 10 years since the compilation started - to find the relevant ones. 

superworm

Right then, unsurprisingly, it was rejected.

Even on a bright morning, the signs are shockingly inadequate. Only screams 3 hour max stay, but fails to highlight the operating hours.
This sign is on the entrance, but on the left side of the driver seat, which makes it dangerous for the driver to pay attention to, especially given the narrow entry lane.


This is upon approach, where you would want to focus on the height barrier so that the top of your vehicle isn't smashed. 



This sign is posted on the right side but on the sharp turn, which as you can see from the pillar, so many vehicles have kissed. and still only says upto 3 hrs free.



This is from a 3 ft distance and still you can only see max 3 hr stay.





This is the view from the parking spot, you almost need a binocular to spot what's written.


Any pointers on which clause is best suited to appeal to POPLA with will be much and truly appreciated.

Coupon-mad

Very good. Easy win at POPLA with those photos.  What do you need to know that's not already in the POPLA section of the NEWBIES thread - the third post?

I think ECP will give up.

superworm

Thanks Coupon-mad. I've got a first draft, and will be very grateful to anyone who can review and provide any points that can be improved upon. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/70hzeql3q2iwelwae2560/Appeal_stage2_POPLA_ECP_draft1-redacted.pdf?rlkey=h4a7ksqa2gl38mfr71diz7555&dl=0