Octopus / Economy 7 - time issues

PJ2000

On moving into a new flat I had issues in the winter with the immersion heater and storage heaters all switching on half an hour earlier than the cheap rate kicked in and costing a small fortune. Octopus fixed this problem after some discussion by causing the items electricity supply to trigger them at the time when the cheap rate started. Perfect!
BUT shortly after the problem was fixed the clocks changed and the items were now a full hour out of time with the cheaper rates. This wasn't a problem with the storage heaters as they came on an hour into the cheap rate, topped up and went off again.
BUT the water immersion heater now believes it should stay on a full hour into the expensive rate in the morning. If anyone uses hot water in the morning the immersion heater still triggers and costs money I don't see the need to pay. This is our only means of hot water - we can turn it off EVERY morning during the summer months and back on again before the night - but that seems to defeat the object of the timed economy 7 cheap heating triggering the devices in the first place. We cannot change the clocks on the devices.
Octopus have said they cannot fix it as they'd need to change it every time the clocks change. I don't see why this doesn't happen automatically - and why there isn't some way this can be rectified.
Whilst the situation at the moment is preferable to things being on the wrong times in the winter it still costs money.
Octopus have now offered a one-off (minimal) compensation - but this problem will now occur every Summer. I can push this to a formal complaint or take their compensation money. I just wondered what other people would do in this situation? If I'm missing anything glaringly obvious I'd love to know.

QrizB

You have a smart meter?

PJ2000 said:

BUT shortly after the problem was fixed the clocks changed and the items were now a full hour out of time with the cheaper rates.

How do you know that the E7 timing on the meter changed to match BST? It's normal for E7 times to remain on GMT all year round.

So, if your E7 times are midnight to 7am in the winter, they will be 1am to 8am in the summer.

PJ2000 said:

If I'm missing anything glaringly obvious I'd love to know.

The clock that switches your meter between cheap rate and peak rate is the same clock (with the same settings) that switches your E7 supply on and off.

Do you have any evidence to show that your E7 immersion heater is turning on during peak rate times?

dunstonh

BUT shortly after the problem was fixed the clocks changed and the items were now a full hour out of time with the cheaper rates. This wasn't a problem with the storage heaters as they came on an hour into the cheap rate, topped up and went off again.

It shouldn't be a problem now.  The charging should stay on GMT and not change to BST. However, unlike older digital meters, the smart meters do update their time as we move to BST.  But you ignore that and continue to go by GMT.

BUT the water immersion heater now believes it should stay on a full hour into the expensive rate in the morning.

Who changed the timer on the immersion heater?
If the immersion heater doesn't change to BST then that is correct. It is what it should do.     It will match the meter which also doesn't change to BST (irrespective of what the time on the meter says).

Octopus have said they cannot fix it as they'd need to change it every time the clocks change. I don't see why this doesn't happen automatically - and why there isn't some way this can be rectified.

If your timer on the immersion heater is changing with DST and the meter isn't then you should
1) see if the timer on the immersion heater has an option to ignore DST (you suggest that is not possible) or 
2) install a timer that has the option to ignore DST.

I have assumed yours is on the timer method and not the circuit switching method.

 I just wondered what other people would do in this situation?

We are on E7 and have multiple timers for the devices using off peak. 
The meter stays on GMT (as expected) but displays BST.   The meter time is ignored.
Our AGA timer is able to ignore DST and stays on GMT.
Our dishwasher timer is built in and set every day via an app.  
Our podpoint is something I need to look into as it was only installed last week.  I think that timer will need changing as the app, that sets the time, is in BST. But I will keep an eye on it when the clocks next change.

Tonight, check your meter before and after the point it changes from peak to offpeak.
e.g. if yours was 12.30 to 7.30 GMT, you would check the meter at 1.30am BST to see if it switches.   (or do it at 8.30am if you are not a night owl).

Swipe

Assuming you have an immersion heater timer just set to to come on between 3am and 6am then you don't have to worry about it. 3 hours should be plenty enough time for your thermostat to hit max temp.

PJ2000

Hi - thanks so much for all the comments and suggestions- I will take them onboard and do some further test! Just for clarification the immersion has no controls - just the switch on the wall that is on and activates it to heat the water when the cheaper rate is supposed to be on. There is also a booster switch if extra hot water is needed but that is fairly irrelevant.
I’ve heard the immersion kick in when we use the shower or hot water early in the morning and then witnessed on our smart meter that the price spikes up into the high usage at a high price because it’s operating outside the cheap rate time. I do have proof to show this and Octopus say it will be out of synch for half of the year every year - it was previously out of synch by half an hour and they acknowledged that too - they have offered compensation as a result. But it doesn’t fix the issue. I do believe the items are switching on at a time other than when the cheaper rate is operating.

Scot_39

There are 2 standard ways E7 meters can work.

They can provide one permanently live output - and simply alter charging rates.  In which case - everything needs a timer / programmable timer (or some common switched output - e.g. at split consumer unit level).

OR more akin to old legacy heating / comfort tariffs - they can operate with own ALCS - to provide not only a 24/7 live - but a selective timed switched live output - only active during the off-peak - to drive conventional intended loads - that's typically NSH and HW systems - without the need for timers.

(In most regions for E7 - thats 7 hrs continuously overnight) .

I find it difficult to believe that the switched supply ALCS mode could get out of sync with the registers - but it's all just software in the end.

Are you saying thats what happened until Octopus intervened ?

My old Smets1 smart stays on GMT for that switching, there appears a growing group of Smets2 that do not - that switch (iirc for instance BG say there EV times remain midnight to 5 am etc)

But the time displayed switches to DST - at least on the IHD.  (I haven't opened my meter cabinet since I verified the registers peak / off-peak operation and then those rates were appearing correctly on my bill for the right peak / off-peak unit rates.)

So what was 12-5AM is now 1am - 6am - on the IHD and on other clocks etc - in DST.

So what is your set-up - do you rely on ALCS switched live - or have your own timers.

If own timers - you need to check meter register rate times - before and after DST/GMT clock moves - and all of your own timers / device programs - some of these if digital may or may not switch DST / BST (some even based on a user setting if digital / smart)

PJ2000

In response to “Are you saying thats what happened until Octopus intervened ?” 
Thanks for your thoughts - I’m no expert but to my understanding:
We moved in in December - following my noticing the devices were triggering too early/at the expensive rate on the smart meter Octopus agreed to change our timed devices activation time by half an hour to match the cheaper rate electricity at the start of the year and acknowledged they weren’t in synch before that.
They have since said they can’t change the activation time of our heaters/ immersion AGAIN so they will unfortunately be out of synch until the clocks change back in the winter.
I don’t see why they could but now refuse to… 

[Deleted User]

Hi,

PJ2000 said:
I’ve heard the immersion kick in when we use the shower or hot water early in the morning and then witnessed on our smart meter that the price spikes up into the high usage at a high price because it’s operating outside the cheap rate time.

do you mean IHD, In Home Device, or actual smart meter?

Any chance of a photie of that, and of your meter set-up showing meter time/actual time.

Swipe

Scot_39 said:

I find it difficult to believe that the switched supply ALCS mode could get out of sync with the registers - but it's all just software in the end.

There was a thread on here a couple of months ago where the ALCS and E7 switch times didn't match. It wasn't a case of them drifting out of sync though, it was just wrong from the day of installation. It was resolved by the smart meter being replaced. I believe they tried to fix it remotely but without success. 

RedFraggle

My E7 DHW was on a separate E7 circuit but I had it swapped and a separate timer put on the electric supply to it. It now only heats for 2 hours a night which is plenty for me. 

PJ2000

Thanks again for all comments. I have an update and an apparent resolution!
I went back and checked my videos/pictures which proved that the in-home display DID show (just after the clocks changed) that the pricing was the more expensive rate/out of phase with the activated devices for an hour in the mornings.
After reading everyone's comments I did yet another set of readings this morning and compared them.
The cheaper rate is now correctly displayed until the devices go off.
I therefore believe that Octopus HAVE synched the two up.
However - they continually said this couldn't be done in our correspondence so I'm not sure how long ago it was fixed.
As I have the result I wanted I'm happy to conclude this matter - however I do feel it's important to highlight that this IS a problem - and people do need to flag up if it occurs. 
I also hope things will continue to work when the clocks change in October...