Potential redundancy at end of apprenticeship would you rather know?

Iamdave

We have an employee, extremely clever when it comes to the books and has passed their exams well. Never had below an A grade in their life. Now in their mid 20’s

They’ve recently had an appraisal and been told that the future of their role will require them to be able to be client facing, and able to use their initiative seek out their own workload, manage it and chase up the required information. 

The individual in question is very quiet, and doesn’t have a lot of shall we say confidence. Although they’ve previously implied that they think they’re probably on the spectrum.  

Their apprenticeship ends in about 6 months, there is another employer taking on someone of their skill level locally who wouldn’t require them to be client facing. 

We’re wondering if in their position you’d rather know now that unless they can develop that skill set to be client facing then in all likelihood there is going to be no job for them at the end of the apprenticeship. If told now they have the option to improve, or apply for that other job. With the reassurance that they’ll have a job at least for the next 5 months. 

When I was an apprentice in engineering we saw quite often that those not performing would be told where they need to improve and that their would be no guarantee of a job for them. Those who didn’t improve didn’t get a job. 

Don’t want to be heartless but we’ve got a business to run, we’ve slogged our guts out for 20 years and we need someone who can fulfil the skill set above to allow us to ease back. 

Opinions welcome,

artyboy

So you wouldn't be making them redundant - the role is still there for the right person. You'd be dismissing them on performance/capability grounds. Which, provided they have been employed for less than 2 years and you would not be dismissing them based on any protected characteristics, is perfectly legal.

Given your "don't want to be heartless, but", that's basically the long and short of it...

Iamdave

Yeah I’m abreast of the legal stuff anyway. 

It’s more of a question of if you were in their position would you want to know 5 months out, gives you the opportunity so seize the initiative if you do want a full time job (initiative is something lacking so far though), given theirs another suitable role being advertised right now maybe having the opportunity to apply for that whilst it’s available or would you be a bit miffed if you’re told in 5 months time at the end of apprenticeship there’s no role for you. 

Slight risk to us as employers that if told now, they’d become a bit of a bad egg in the workplace but to be fair to them I think they’d continue to do the stuff they can do well enough

Marcon

Iamdave said:

Yeah I’m abreast of the legal stuff anyway. 

It’s more of a question of if you were in their position would you want to know 5 months out, gives you the opportunity so seize the initiative if you do want a full time job (initiative is something lacking so far though), given theirs another suitable role being advertised right now maybe having the opportunity to apply for that whilst it’s available or would you be a bit miffed if you’re told in 5 months time at the end of apprenticeship there’s no role for you. 

Slight risk to us as employers that if told now, they’d become a bit of a bad egg in the workplace but to be fair to them I think they’d continue to do the stuff they can do well enough

I don't think asking what other people would or wouldn't want is relevant - you  know your employee and the question is what do you think they would 'want' to know, or more accurately, what is likely to be in their best long term interests?

Iamdave said:

Don’t want to be heartless but we’ve got a business to run, we’ve slogged our guts out for 20 years and we need someone who can fulfil the skill set above to allow us to ease back. 

Good on you for even bothering to ask here - nothing heartless about the thought you are giving to this issue. If the employee concerned isn't going to cut it, then there's your answer, I'm afraid.

Khaderbhai

What was there reaction to being told it’s client facing in the appraisal? I think letting them know the earlier the better as everyone knows where they stand. Allows them to either refocus and learn some new skills or plan for alternative employment. 

TBagpuss

I think given what you have said it would be appropriate for you to tell them, and to be very clear that the client facing element and the ability to seek out work are both critical requirements for the role, and that you are giving them the information so that they can use the next 6 months to build thise skills or to look for alternative roles elsewhere if they feel they will be unable to do so, or if they do not wish to do so.  I would also say that if they are not able to demonstrate those skills, that there will not be, or is very unlikely to be , a suitable job for them at the end of the apprenticeship as those skills are essential to the role. 

ReadingTim

If you're "abreast of the legal stuff" then you wouldn't be using the word redundancy in this situation as it's factually wrong.  I'd also question why you took on this particular lad for a role which would end up being client facing etc when it's blatantly not suitable for it, or why you've just realised this now - seems like you've messed up, and now he's going to suffer the consequences of that.  Nice one.  

Anyway, you are where you are.  I would suggest that over the next 5 months, in the same way as he's been taught the theory or practical skills, he's going to have to be taught how to deal with clients, generate sales etc.  Confidence can be taught or developed as he develops his product/business knowledge etc so you need to work with him on that - he may never be great at small talk or the likes, but some skills can be learnt/taught - it's not a case that you either have it or you don't and there's nothing more to do.  This is simply the next stage of his training.  

This is your responsibility as an employer of apprentices.  As with everything else, he needs to be given objectives which are specific, measurable, realistic and time-bound.  If, having done all of this, he doesn't make the progress he should, then it's fair to dismiss him on capability grounds, or say that having completed the apprenticeship unfortunately there isn't a role for him in the company, however, he needs to be given all the tools to be able to do the job, whereas by doing nothing, you're currently just setting him up to fail.  And that's also pretty heartless.   

Undervalued

ReadingTim said:

If you're "abreast of the legal stuff" then you wouldn't be using the word redundancy in this situation as it's factually wrong.  I'd also question why you took on this particular lad for a role which would end up being client facing etc when it's blatantly not suitable for it, or why you've just realised this now - seems like you've messed up, and now he's going to suffer the consequences of that.  Nice one.  

Anyway, you are where you are.  I would suggest that over the next 5 months, in the same way as he's been taught the theory or practical skills, he's going to have to be taught how to deal with clients, generate sales etc.  Confidence can be taught or developed as he develops his product/business knowledge etc so you need to work with him on that - he may never be great at small talk or the likes, but some skills can be learnt/taught - it's not a case that you either have it or you don't and there's nothing more to do.  This is simply the next stage of his training.  

This is your responsibility as an employer of apprentices.  As with everything else, he needs to be given objectives which are specific, measurable, realistic and time-bound.  If, having done all of this, he doesn't make the progress he should, then it's fair to dismiss him on capability grounds, or say that having completed the apprenticeship unfortunately there isn't a role for him in the company, however, he needs to be given all the tools to be able to do the job, whereas by doing nothing, you're currently just setting him up to fail.  And that's also pretty heartless.   

Quite.

I wonder too if this young person might have a disability (for employment law purposes). If their condition does amount to a disability (and the OP mentions "Although they’ve previously implied that they think they’re probably on the spectrum") then the OP has a legal obligation to make "reasonable adjustments" which seem in short supply at the moment!

ReadingTim

Undervalued said:

ReadingTim said:

If you're "abreast of the legal stuff" then you wouldn't be using the word redundancy in this situation as it's factually wrong.  I'd also question why you took on this particular lad for a role which would end up being client facing etc when it's blatantly not suitable for it, or why you've just realised this now - seems like you've messed up, and now he's going to suffer the consequences of that.  Nice one.  

Anyway, you are where you are.  I would suggest that over the next 5 months, in the same way as he's been taught the theory or practical skills, he's going to have to be taught how to deal with clients, generate sales etc.  Confidence can be taught or developed as he develops his product/business knowledge etc so you need to work with him on that - he may never be great at small talk or the likes, but some skills can be learnt/taught - it's not a case that you either have it or you don't and there's nothing more to do.  This is simply the next stage of his training.  

This is your responsibility as an employer of apprentices.  As with everything else, he needs to be given objectives which are specific, measurable, realistic and time-bound.  If, having done all of this, he doesn't make the progress he should, then it's fair to dismiss him on capability grounds, or say that having completed the apprenticeship unfortunately there isn't a role for him in the company, however, he needs to be given all the tools to be able to do the job, whereas by doing nothing, you're currently just setting him up to fail.  And that's also pretty heartless.   

Quite.

I wonder too if this young person might have a disability (for employment law purposes). If their condition does amount to a disability (and the OP mentions "Although they’ve previously implied that they think they’re probably on the spectrum") then the OP has a legal obligation to make "reasonable adjustments" which seem in short supply at the moment!

He might, but he'll need to have that disability proven rather than merely the opinion that he thinks he's 'on the spectrum':- we're all on the spectrum, but it's where we are on it that's key.  Middle good; edges, less so.  

Furthermore, he'll need to have formally notified the employer for them to have the obligation to make reasonable adjustments, and even then, it's not carte blanche, as some roles require skills which can't be reasonably adjusted for - which is why you don't see any swimming pool lifeguards in wheelchairs for example.  

Undervalued

ReadingTim said:

Undervalued said:

ReadingTim said:

If you're "abreast of the legal stuff" then you wouldn't be using the word redundancy in this situation as it's factually wrong.  I'd also question why you took on this particular lad for a role which would end up being client facing etc when it's blatantly not suitable for it, or why you've just realised this now - seems like you've messed up, and now he's going to suffer the consequences of that.  Nice one.  

Anyway, you are where you are.  I would suggest that over the next 5 months, in the same way as he's been taught the theory or practical skills, he's going to have to be taught how to deal with clients, generate sales etc.  Confidence can be taught or developed as he develops his product/business knowledge etc so you need to work with him on that - he may never be great at small talk or the likes, but some skills can be learnt/taught - it's not a case that you either have it or you don't and there's nothing more to do.  This is simply the next stage of his training.  

This is your responsibility as an employer of apprentices.  As with everything else, he needs to be given objectives which are specific, measurable, realistic and time-bound.  If, having done all of this, he doesn't make the progress he should, then it's fair to dismiss him on capability grounds, or say that having completed the apprenticeship unfortunately there isn't a role for him in the company, however, he needs to be given all the tools to be able to do the job, whereas by doing nothing, you're currently just setting him up to fail.  And that's also pretty heartless.   

Quite.

I wonder too if this young person might have a disability (for employment law purposes). If their condition does amount to a disability (and the OP mentions "Although they’ve previously implied that they think they’re probably on the spectrum") then the OP has a legal obligation to make "reasonable adjustments" which seem in short supply at the moment!

He might, but he'll need to have that disability proven rather than merely the opinion that he thinks he's 'on the spectrum':- we're all on the spectrum, but it's where we are on it that's key.  Middle good; edges, less so.  

Furthermore, he'll need to have formally notified the employer for them to have the obligation to make reasonable adjustments, and even then, it's not carte blanche, as some roles require skills which can't be reasonably adjusted for - which is why you don't see any swimming pool lifeguards in wheelchairs for example.  

Unless it is sufficiently obvious that a reasonable, non medically qualified, person should have been aware.

Bobbobbobingalong

ReadingTim said:

Bobbobbobingalong said:

ReadingTim said:I

This is your responsibility as an employer of apprentices.  As with everything else, he needs to be given objectives which are specific, measurable, ACHIEVABLE, realistic and time-bound.  If, having done all of this, he doesn't make the progress he should, then it's fair to dismiss him on capability grounds, or say that having completed the apprenticeship unfortunately there isn't a role for him in the company, however, he needs to be given all the tools to be able to do the job, whereas by doing nothing, you're currently just setting him up to fail.  And that's also pretty heartless.   

Just FTFY.

Thanks - although fixing would have also changed "realistic" for "relevant".  If you want to be a wit, be a fullwit rather than a halfwit....  

There is always the origin of the acronym to fall back on when unsure of its true meaning, something I would wholeheartedly recommend you take a peek at, you'll see that you appear to be mistaken.

In summary, you were wrong twice and despite an innocent and jibe free correction your first response was to hurl an insult. I can take that, I just hope you feel vindicated by your retort and you have a better day as a consequence,