Mid terrace with private access path in back garden

nnb

I live in a terraced house - I'm #3 of 4 so in the middle. There is a path which goes across the centre of all 4 gardens (halfway down the lawn), so my access to my garden is either through my house or via the path. Obviously the other houses are allowed to use this path to access their own gardens, should they need to, but it's not a public access route.

Well before me moving in, #2 whacked a massive fence up on the path between my house and their house (didn't block off #1 though). Tbh I don't mind this - it makes my garden more secure! Anyway this means my access via the path is now purely via #4, who have a nice little latch gate so it's private but still easy access.

Bear in mind, #2's fence also means NO ONE except me now needs to use the bit of path that's in my garden, as #4 is on the end.

What I'm wondering is, is it now trespassing if ANY of the houses including #4 enter my part of the path as there is nowhere for them to go on it and no reason for them to be on it? And what if they veer off this path and enter other parts of my garden, that IS trespassing, right? Am I obligated to allow #2 or #4 unannounced access to my actual garden (off the path) for any reason at all ie painting their fence, or can they let workers into my actual garden to do stuff to their house?

MeteredOut

I very much doubt #2's fence has removed the right of way, so there's nothing (legally) to stop someone (who has rights) walking through #4, onto your path in your garden, and then turning back again along the path (as ludicrous as that might seem).

And #2 building that fence does not change trespass rules if people go onto other parts of your garden. So, if it was trespass before (as per your deeds) it will still be trespass.

Is there something that's causing you to ask this question? Is #2 coming onto your land to paint the fence between you and them? I notice you say "their fence" - are you 100% sure that is the case?

Unless your (or their) deeds state otherwise, you are not obligated to allow anyone access to land that you exclusively own.

propertyrental

I'm getting serious deja vu

Ah! that's what  was thinking of....

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6456153/terraced-right-of-way-access-changed/p1

nnb

MeteredOut said:

I very much doubt #2's fence has removed the ROW, so there's nothing (legally) to stop someone walking through #4, onto your path in your garden, and then turning back again along the path.

And #2 building that fence does not change trespass rules if people go onto other parts of your garden. So, if it was trespass before (as per your deeds) it will still be trespass.

Is there something that's causing you to ask this question? Is #2 coming onto your land to paint the fence between you and them? I notice you say "their fence" - are you 100% sure that is the case?

Yes, #4 has been known to enter my actual garden to do stuff like paint their fence or cut trees (and leave me the branches), this is nothing that can be done just on the access path. I kind of let this go but recently they allowed workers into my garden who destroyed plants and messed with furniture. I tell them if I'm using their bit of path but letting workers into my actual garden without telling me has annoyed me. #2 have never tried to enter but I am aware they have workers in this week and I'm concerned they'll just let them in via #4 as well if there's a spot they can't reach. Again, this involves being off the path.

Also the fence is definitely #2's handiwork - I have had this confirmed. She's a real oddball and had a tantrum so whacked up a fence, attaching it to the bits of normal fence, in order to block the path. There is no way to access between my garden and hers without jumping the fence.

propertyrental

Putting up a fence does not remove a ROW. You could get Nb 2 to remove the fence, either initially via a friendly tea and cakes chat (suggest a gate with keys to those with a right?).

Or go down the legal route.

Depeding of course on the exact wording of the ROW, all 4 houses (probably) still have a right to use the path across your garden. The fact that 'there's nowhere for them to go' does not remove their ROW. They too, could force nb 2 to remove the fence.

As for wandering off the path onto your garden- no, of course that is trespass. Again depending on the wording, their right is presumably to use the path, not your garden.

Would help if you quoted the exact wording in your deeds (ad the deeds of the other 3 hoyses) relating to the TOW.

MeteredOut

nnb said:

MeteredOut said:

I very much doubt #2's fence has removed the ROW, so there's nothing (legally) to stop someone walking through #4, onto your path in your garden, and then turning back again along the path.

And #2 building that fence does not change trespass rules if people go onto other parts of your garden. So, if it was trespass before (as per your deeds) it will still be trespass.

Is there something that's causing you to ask this question? Is #2 coming onto your land to paint the fence between you and them? I notice you say "their fence" - are you 100% sure that is the case?

Yes, #4 has been known to enter my actual garden to do stuff like paint their fence or cut trees (and leave me the branches), this is nothing that can be done just on the access path. I kind of let this go but recently they allowed workers into my garden who destroyed plants and messed with furniture. I tell them if I'm using their bit of path but letting workers into my actual garden without telling me has annoyed me. #2 have never tried to enter but I am aware they have workers in this week and I'm concerned they'll just let them in via #4 as well if there's a spot they can't reach. Again, this involves being off the path.

Also the fence is definitely #2's handiwork - I have had this confirmed. She's a real oddball and had a tantrum so whacked up a fence, attaching it to the bits of normal fence, in order to block the path. There is no way to access between my garden and hers without jumping the fence.

If you want to go nuclear, tell the workers you have not agreed for them to access your land and ask them to leave. If they do not, phone the police.

But, what is it you are actually trying to achieve? Probably better to speak to #4.

Jonboy_1984

Two seperate things here:

Neighbours 2 and 4 will have rights to access for things like fence maintenance under "The Access to Neighbouring Land Act 1992". They should generally be courteous and discuss works with you first and not cause damage to your property. They could ultimately get a court order for such maintenance if you prevented such access. You have reciprocal rights

As for 2 stopping up the a Right of Way it depends what access is given under the title deeds to the properties (some may have a ROW across both routes, some may have such a route but only a ROW in one direction).
Bear in mind that your rights may not appear on their deeds in any detail (and if they are renting they may not have ever seen the deeds). Simply erecting a  fence doesn't erase any such rights granted to you. 

nnb

propertyrental said:

Putting up a fence does not remove a ROW. You could get Nb 2 to remove the fence, either initially via a friendly tea and cakes chat (suggest a gate with keys to those with a right?).

Or go down the legal route.

Depeding of course on the exact wording of the ROW, all 4 houses (probably) still have a right to use the path across your garden. The fact that 'there's nowhere for them to go' does not remove their ROW. They too, could force nb 2 to remove the fence.

As for wandering off the path onto your garden- no, of course that is trespass. Again depending on the wording, their right is presumably to use the path, not your garden.

Would help if you quoted the exact wording in your deeds (ad the deeds of the other 3 hoyses) relating to the TOW.

To be honest, I don't care about the fence - as I said it makes my garden feel more secure so she's done me a bit of a favour really. I did post clarification in another reply to someone about why I was asking. #2 isn't my problem - it's #4!

Also can confirm that other thread was absolutely nothing to do with any of us haha

nnb

MeteredOut said:

nnb said:

MeteredOut said:

I very much doubt #2's fence has removed the ROW, so there's nothing (legally) to stop someone walking through #4, onto your path in your garden, and then turning back again along the path.

And #2 building that fence does not change trespass rules if people go onto other parts of your garden. So, if it was trespass before (as per your deeds) it will still be trespass.

Is there something that's causing you to ask this question? Is #2 coming onto your land to paint the fence between you and them? I notice you say "their fence" - are you 100% sure that is the case?

Yes, #4 has been known to enter my actual garden to do stuff like paint their fence or cut trees (and leave me the branches), this is nothing that can be done just on the access path. I kind of let this go but recently they allowed workers into my garden who destroyed plants and messed with furniture. I tell them if I'm using their bit of path but letting workers into my actual garden without telling me has annoyed me. #2 have never tried to enter but I am aware they have workers in this week and I'm concerned they'll just let them in via #4 as well if there's a spot they can't reach. Again, this involves being off the path.

Also the fence is definitely #2's handiwork - I have had this confirmed. She's a real oddball and had a tantrum so whacked up a fence, attaching it to the bits of normal fence, in order to block the path. There is no way to access between my garden and hers without jumping the fence.

If you want to go nuclear, tell the workers you have not agreed for them to access your land and ask them to leave. If they do not, phone the police.

But, what is it you are actually trying to achieve? Probably better to speak to #2.

In all honesty, I'm just trying to get clarification of my rights in case it happens again where they veer off the path and random workers are doing this rather than the actual neighbour. I would NOT have let those specific workers into my back garden (they were very questionable types) and I did not like that the neighbour allowed it without telling me, even retrospectively, but I'm expected to tell them if I want to use the access path by myself! The fact these cowboys then caused mess/minor damage AND no one apologised just made it more insulting.

I don't care about the fence from #2, as I said, she's done me a favour in a way. It's just #4 seeming to have one rule for them and another for me!

ThisIsWeird

Blimey!
Yes, you need to download all 4 copies, read them carefully, check the coloured bits on the hopefully included maps, and write down a few succinct sentences to describe the full and true 'rights' you all have, and under which circumstances. Post the relevant sections on here if needed.

Yes, what neighb 2 did is great for you! BUT, that doesn't mean it's right. It could be, but it might not be. Ie, the deeds might show that no2 has a RoW only over No1, and you over no4 and that's it, in which case no2 has done nothing wrong. Or, it could be 1:3. Or 3:1. Or, all 4 have RoWs in either direction. So you NEED to find this out.

I'm really hoping that the deeds will also describe the use of this RoW - its 'purpose', what it is for, what you are allowed to carry over it. It must be there for a 'reason'! If it's to gain access to the end roads, or if it's to allow easy access to the owner's gardens, then no4 has no right to use yours, unless they also have the right to use no2's. In which case, until they demand that no2 puts a gate in their fence so that the no4 can complete their 'right' to get to the far end under one of the path's purposes outlined in the deeds,  they will have no right to cross your garden - they should stop at their fence. They would need to be able to answer your Q "What are you doing in my garden?" with one of the 'examples' taken from their deeds. If they cannot, then 'out'.

What's at the ends of this terrace, on each side? Does one end 'go' somewhere obvious, like to a park or road? What about the other end?
And, how well defined is this path? On some old properties, the RoW was there specifically to allow access to things like wells. With the wells usually long covered over, they rights will also almost certainly have disappeared, at least in practice.

Regardless of the 'rights' to do with that path, no-one has the right to let themselves or their workers or their families or their friends or their dawg on to your private land off that pathway.

 No4 certainly appears to feel they have entitlements they are extremely unlikely to actually have, and that is something you need to point out. GET THE LIST OF 'RIGHTS' FROM ALL THE DEEDS!
They will likely not be happy with the outcome, but chances are that you CAN cross their garden without having to ask permission, whereas - since the path is blocked at no2 - they shouldn't be coming on to yours at all. 

But certainly not to do work without your express permission. 
Yes, the NLA gives rights if the work is justified but permission is refused, but - for such valid reasons - I'm sure you wouldn't refuse permission in any case. But, you would expect to be asked, and you would give some caveats.

Anyhoo, download and read