Martin Lewis: Why are energy standing charges so high? What can be done

JSHarris

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

If @Dolor was still around, he'd now point out that there was an Ofgem project a few years back looking at using people's 30-minute smart meter data to allow automated comparison of smart tariffs.

I don't know where that project has gone, but if/when it's rolled out comparing smart tariffs will be no more difficult than comparing dumb ones used to be. Go to a comparison site, give your address details and click the button.

That reinforces my view that Ofgem (and the other regulators) are unfit for purpose and are too close to the industries they supposedly regulate.  There's nothing at all wrong with rolling out complex tariffs, as long as there is also a mechanism that simplifies them at the consumer end, so that there isn't a need for consumer to devise and run fairly complex models to determine whether any particular tariff offers best value.

Some time ago I invested the time in modelling Agile (at the time I had hopes we would be able to take advantage of it) and it was a non-trivial task, despite me having a database of electricity readings, taken every 6 minutes, going back for several years. 

It should be possible for comparison sites to do as I did, but there are problems to overcome, not least the regulations surrounding personal data.  I'm sure that it's physically possible for DCC to allow access to meter data, what I'm less sure of is how that can be done whilst still complying with data protection regulations, or exposing a consumer to some sort of threat (given that bad actors are becoming increasingly adept at utilising seemingly benign data sources).

MattMattMattUK

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

It takes a fair bit of time and effort to get to grips with many of the complex tariffs offered by suppliers like Octopus, especially when it comes to determining whether any of them really do offer a better deal for any particular use case.

I'm one of the small group of unfortunates unable to take advantage of smart tariffs, for reasons wholly outwith my control, but what I've learned, by force of circumstance, is that there are some very definite upsides to having to accept a relatively simple tariff.  It annoys me that I can't get a better deal, but having to make the best of a bad job has taught me that simple tariffs are very easy to manage, and require no effort at all on my part, other than to ensure that time switches are set correctly.

As we have managed to heat our 1400square foot home, have adequate hot water, cook our meals, stay entertained and run our electric car for a total cost of about £750 this year I don't feel that I've done too badly with our simple tariff.  I don't feel that we've had too much adverse impact on the environment, either, as looking at the carbon intensity of the grid at the times when we use power it seems to be about as low as it ever gets.

Whilst complex tariffs, that offer very good opportunities for some to make good use of them, have their place, I do feel that there are, at least for now, some major issues when it comes to getting the majority of consumers to understand how they work and have the time (and willingness) to take best advantage of them.  Perhaps technology will catch up and become massively more reliable than it is right now, in which case some of my concerns may become moot.  However, given that some, perhaps most, of the technology bottlenecks are down to the laws of physics I'm not that confident that the issues will all be resolved.

Maybe rocket science was a tad unfair, but let us be realistic, it is well within the capacity of the vast majority and many are choosing not do work it out, rather than unable to. It is the kind of thing that anyone mildly proficient with a spreadsheet could do in less than half an hour, and that means pretty much everyone who completed secondary education in the last thirty years. I totally agree that those who cannot cope should be helped, but the vast majority are will not, rather than can not.

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

If @Dolor was still around, he'd now point out that there was an Ofgem project a few years back looking at using people's 30-minute smart meter data to allow automated comparison of smart tariffs.

I don't know where that project has gone, but if/when it's rolled out comparing smart tariffs will be no more difficult than comparing dumb ones used to be. Go to a comparison site, give your address details and click the button.

It initially started in 2018, and was due to report in FY 19/20 but got delayed as there were claims of inadequate smart meter data (not enough people sharing 30 minute data) even though they had several million in the test data. It then got kicked back to late 2021 and as far as I am aware there have been no further updates since. It may be due to the comparison sites barely operating now and that means that they do not have the revenue to invest at the moment, I know there were also some data privacy concerns (if one inputted details of a third party address, what level of data did one gain access to).

The industry has also moved on now, 30 minute data is less relevant, what will actually be the big change over the next few years will be dynamic load shifting, things like Demand Reduction, free sessions etc. all contribute to that. Those who are willing and able to shift their usage based on an "on demand" level of shifting will be where the gains are, things like Octopus integrating directly with heat pump control systems to dynamically manage load and reduce costs, dynamic export tariffs that offer greater amounts for exporting at peak times, or on demand for load levelling etc. I suspect it may be that what was originally envisioned in 2018 has long ceased to be relevant and the pace of technological integration meant that the proposed system was deemed no longer useful. 

MattMattMattUK

JSHarris said:

QrizB said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

If @Dolor was still around, he'd now point out that there was an Ofgem project a few years back looking at using people's 30-minute smart meter data to allow automated comparison of smart tariffs.

I don't know where that project has gone, but if/when it's rolled out comparing smart tariffs will be no more difficult than comparing dumb ones used to be. Go to a comparison site, give your address details and click the button.

There's nothing at all wrong with rolling out complex tariffs, as long as there is also a mechanism that simplifies them at the consumer end, so that there isn't a need for consumer to devise and run fairly complex models to determine whether any particular tariff offers best value.

It does depend how one defines "complex tariff", technically "complex tariffs" were banned in 2014, what we have now are dynamically priced tariffs. The models actually depend less on 30 minute data and much more on variable and dynamic usage, Heat Pump tariffs have windows, but will be fully dynamic in a few years, EV tariffs have ultra low windows, but also have the ability for the energy supplier to push charging at a low rate at any time based on demand, other tariffs for those with batteries will be fully dynamic in a year or two. 

JSHarris said:

That reinforces my view that Ofgem (and the other regulators) are unfit for purpose and are too close to the industries they supposedly regulate.  

I do not think that Ofgem (or some other regulators) are unfit for purpose, the problem is that their policy and direction is set from government and in the case of the UK there is no coherent national energy policy. Ofgem does reasonably well within it's mandate, but it does not and cannot set UK energy policy, so it effectively has to manage the system with both it's hands tied, whilst significant parts of overall energy policy are fundamentally broken.

JSHarris said:

Some time ago I invested the time in modelling Agile (at the time I had hopes we would be able to take advantage of it) and it was a non-trivial task, despite me having a database of electricity readings, taken every 6 minutes, going back for several years. 

It should be possible for comparison sites to do as I did, but there are problems to overcome, not least the regulations surrounding personal data.  I'm sure that it's physically possible for DCC to allow access to meter data, what I'm less sure of is how that can be done whilst still complying with data protection regulations, or exposing a consumer to some sort of threat (given that bad actors are becoming increasingly adept at utilising seemingly benign data sources).

I think the access to data is a major issue in the whole process, the other is as per my above post the system perhaps outlived it's usefulness before it was even implemented. Some of the suggestions around the data issue were that customers should be able to export the data from their existing supplier (most already offer this) and upload it to a comparison site themselves, thereby bypassing any data protection issues with data being transferred by/processed by third parties and others gaining access to it. The other was that we should do away with comparison sites for energy entirely, that all options should be available on the Ofgem site, with some kind of verification process for households in place to access tariff information based on their specific usage. That was deemed "unworkable" by the comparison sites and "big brother" by the right of the Conservatives, so was also never developed. 

JSHarris

MattMattMattUK said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

It takes a fair bit of time and effort to get to grips with many of the complex tariffs offered by suppliers like Octopus, especially when it comes to determining whether any of them really do offer a better deal for any particular use case.

I'm one of the small group of unfortunates unable to take advantage of smart tariffs, for reasons wholly outwith my control, but what I've learned, by force of circumstance, is that there are some very definite upsides to having to accept a relatively simple tariff.  It annoys me that I can't get a better deal, but having to make the best of a bad job has taught me that simple tariffs are very easy to manage, and require no effort at all on my part, other than to ensure that time switches are set correctly.

As we have managed to heat our 1400square foot home, have adequate hot water, cook our meals, stay entertained and run our electric car for a total cost of about £750 this year I don't feel that I've done too badly with our simple tariff.  I don't feel that we've had too much adverse impact on the environment, either, as looking at the carbon intensity of the grid at the times when we use power it seems to be about as low as it ever gets.

Whilst complex tariffs, that offer very good opportunities for some to make good use of them, have their place, I do feel that there are, at least for now, some major issues when it comes to getting the majority of consumers to understand how they work and have the time (and willingness) to take best advantage of them.  Perhaps technology will catch up and become massively more reliable than it is right now, in which case some of my concerns may become moot.  However, given that some, perhaps most, of the technology bottlenecks are down to the laws of physics I'm not that confident that the issues will all be resolved.

Maybe rocket science was a tad unfair, but let us be realistic, it is well within the capacity of the vast majority and many are choosing not do work it out, rather than unable to. It is the kind of thing that anyone mildly proficient with a spreadsheet could do in less than half an hour, and that means pretty much everyone who completed secondary education in the last thirty years. I totally agree that those who cannot cope should be helped, but the vast majority are will not, rather than can not.

But that is ignoring age-related degradation.  I'm still reasonably compos mentis at 71, but I certainly have to concentrate a great deal harder to do arithmetic that I would have done in seconds a decade ago.  I'm also finding that my memory is nowhere near as sharp as it used to be, nothing actually wrong with me at all (I passed a routine dementia test a few weeks ago with flying colours) but simple stuff, like remembering two meter readings for the 30 seconds it takes to walk back to my PC and type them in now takes a bit of concentration, whereas years ago I'd have been able to hold half a dozen longish numbers in my head without any bother.

Even things like wading through supplier websites to track down where they've hidden their tariff information labels seems to get harder every time I do it, and I can foresee a time when I simply won't bother, as it's too much effort.

MattMattMattUK

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

It takes a fair bit of time and effort to get to grips with many of the complex tariffs offered by suppliers like Octopus, especially when it comes to determining whether any of them really do offer a better deal for any particular use case.

I'm one of the small group of unfortunates unable to take advantage of smart tariffs, for reasons wholly outwith my control, but what I've learned, by force of circumstance, is that there are some very definite upsides to having to accept a relatively simple tariff.  It annoys me that I can't get a better deal, but having to make the best of a bad job has taught me that simple tariffs are very easy to manage, and require no effort at all on my part, other than to ensure that time switches are set correctly.

As we have managed to heat our 1400square foot home, have adequate hot water, cook our meals, stay entertained and run our electric car for a total cost of about £750 this year I don't feel that I've done too badly with our simple tariff.  I don't feel that we've had too much adverse impact on the environment, either, as looking at the carbon intensity of the grid at the times when we use power it seems to be about as low as it ever gets.

Whilst complex tariffs, that offer very good opportunities for some to make good use of them, have their place, I do feel that there are, at least for now, some major issues when it comes to getting the majority of consumers to understand how they work and have the time (and willingness) to take best advantage of them.  Perhaps technology will catch up and become massively more reliable than it is right now, in which case some of my concerns may become moot.  However, given that some, perhaps most, of the technology bottlenecks are down to the laws of physics I'm not that confident that the issues will all be resolved.

Maybe rocket science was a tad unfair, but let us be realistic, it is well within the capacity of the vast majority and many are choosing not do work it out, rather than unable to. It is the kind of thing that anyone mildly proficient with a spreadsheet could do in less than half an hour, and that means pretty much everyone who completed secondary education in the last thirty years. I totally agree that those who cannot cope should be helped, but the vast majority are will not, rather than can not.

But that is ignoring age-related degradation.  I'm still reasonably compos mentis at 71, but I certainly have to concentrate a great deal harder to do arithmetic that I would have done in seconds a decade ago.  I'm also finding that my memory is nowhere near as sharp as it used to be, nothing actually wrong with me at all (I passed a routine dementia test a few weeks ago with flying colours) but simple stuff, like remembering two meter readings for the 30 seconds it takes to walk back to my PC and type them in now takes a bit of concentration, whereas years ago I'd have been able to hold half a dozen longish numbers in my head without any bother.

Even things like wading through supplier websites to track down where they've hidden their tariff information labels seems to get harder every time I do it, and I can foresee a time when I simply won't bother, as it's too much effort.

That is nothing to do with your age and everything to do with the way that most of the suppliers now choose to hide the tariff information labels on their websites, usually behind some kind of quote system. Octopus are very good at making them clearly displayed, EDF clearly publish all their current and historical tariffs as clearly named and correctly referenced PDFs, some other suppliers hide them in parts of the website that whilst publicly accessible are not actually accessible by using the menu system on the site, one can only reach them if they know the correct address, or via a link from a Google search. 

JSHarris

MattMattMattUK said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

It takes a fair bit of time and effort to get to grips with many of the complex tariffs offered by suppliers like Octopus, especially when it comes to determining whether any of them really do offer a better deal for any particular use case.

I'm one of the small group of unfortunates unable to take advantage of smart tariffs, for reasons wholly outwith my control, but what I've learned, by force of circumstance, is that there are some very definite upsides to having to accept a relatively simple tariff.  It annoys me that I can't get a better deal, but having to make the best of a bad job has taught me that simple tariffs are very easy to manage, and require no effort at all on my part, other than to ensure that time switches are set correctly.

As we have managed to heat our 1400square foot home, have adequate hot water, cook our meals, stay entertained and run our electric car for a total cost of about £750 this year I don't feel that I've done too badly with our simple tariff.  I don't feel that we've had too much adverse impact on the environment, either, as looking at the carbon intensity of the grid at the times when we use power it seems to be about as low as it ever gets.

Whilst complex tariffs, that offer very good opportunities for some to make good use of them, have their place, I do feel that there are, at least for now, some major issues when it comes to getting the majority of consumers to understand how they work and have the time (and willingness) to take best advantage of them.  Perhaps technology will catch up and become massively more reliable than it is right now, in which case some of my concerns may become moot.  However, given that some, perhaps most, of the technology bottlenecks are down to the laws of physics I'm not that confident that the issues will all be resolved.

Maybe rocket science was a tad unfair, but let us be realistic, it is well within the capacity of the vast majority and many are choosing not do work it out, rather than unable to. It is the kind of thing that anyone mildly proficient with a spreadsheet could do in less than half an hour, and that means pretty much everyone who completed secondary education in the last thirty years. I totally agree that those who cannot cope should be helped, but the vast majority are will not, rather than can not.

But that is ignoring age-related degradation.  I'm still reasonably compos mentis at 71, but I certainly have to concentrate a great deal harder to do arithmetic that I would have done in seconds a decade ago.  I'm also finding that my memory is nowhere near as sharp as it used to be, nothing actually wrong with me at all (I passed a routine dementia test a few weeks ago with flying colours) but simple stuff, like remembering two meter readings for the 30 seconds it takes to walk back to my PC and type them in now takes a bit of concentration, whereas years ago I'd have been able to hold half a dozen longish numbers in my head without any bother.

Even things like wading through supplier websites to track down where they've hidden their tariff information labels seems to get harder every time I do it, and I can foresee a time when I simply won't bother, as it's too much effort.

That is nothing to do with your age and everything to do with the way that most of the suppliers now choose to hide the tariff information labels on their websites. Octupus are very good at making them clearly displayed, EDF clearly publish all their current and historical tariffs as clearly named and correctly referenced PDFs, some other suppliers hide them in parts of the website that whilst publicly accessible are not actually accessible by using the menu system on the site, one can only reach them if they know the correct address, or via a link from a Google search. 

I would hazard a guess that you may not be as old as some here!

MattMattMattUK

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

It takes a fair bit of time and effort to get to grips with many of the complex tariffs offered by suppliers like Octopus, especially when it comes to determining whether any of them really do offer a better deal for any particular use case.

I'm one of the small group of unfortunates unable to take advantage of smart tariffs, for reasons wholly outwith my control, but what I've learned, by force of circumstance, is that there are some very definite upsides to having to accept a relatively simple tariff.  It annoys me that I can't get a better deal, but having to make the best of a bad job has taught me that simple tariffs are very easy to manage, and require no effort at all on my part, other than to ensure that time switches are set correctly.

As we have managed to heat our 1400square foot home, have adequate hot water, cook our meals, stay entertained and run our electric car for a total cost of about £750 this year I don't feel that I've done too badly with our simple tariff.  I don't feel that we've had too much adverse impact on the environment, either, as looking at the carbon intensity of the grid at the times when we use power it seems to be about as low as it ever gets.

Whilst complex tariffs, that offer very good opportunities for some to make good use of them, have their place, I do feel that there are, at least for now, some major issues when it comes to getting the majority of consumers to understand how they work and have the time (and willingness) to take best advantage of them.  Perhaps technology will catch up and become massively more reliable than it is right now, in which case some of my concerns may become moot.  However, given that some, perhaps most, of the technology bottlenecks are down to the laws of physics I'm not that confident that the issues will all be resolved.

Maybe rocket science was a tad unfair, but let us be realistic, it is well within the capacity of the vast majority and many are choosing not do work it out, rather than unable to. It is the kind of thing that anyone mildly proficient with a spreadsheet could do in less than half an hour, and that means pretty much everyone who completed secondary education in the last thirty years. I totally agree that those who cannot cope should be helped, but the vast majority are will not, rather than can not.

But that is ignoring age-related degradation.  I'm still reasonably compos mentis at 71, but I certainly have to concentrate a great deal harder to do arithmetic that I would have done in seconds a decade ago.  I'm also finding that my memory is nowhere near as sharp as it used to be, nothing actually wrong with me at all (I passed a routine dementia test a few weeks ago with flying colours) but simple stuff, like remembering two meter readings for the 30 seconds it takes to walk back to my PC and type them in now takes a bit of concentration, whereas years ago I'd have been able to hold half a dozen longish numbers in my head without any bother.

Even things like wading through supplier websites to track down where they've hidden their tariff information labels seems to get harder every time I do it, and I can foresee a time when I simply won't bother, as it's too much effort.

That is nothing to do with your age and everything to do with the way that most of the suppliers now choose to hide the tariff information labels on their websites. Octupus are very good at making them clearly displayed, EDF clearly publish all their current and historical tariffs as clearly named and correctly referenced PDFs, some other suppliers hide them in parts of the website that whilst publicly accessible are not actually accessible by using the menu system on the site, one can only reach them if they know the correct address, or via a link from a Google search. 

I would hazard a guess that you may not be as old as some here!

Ah, but I am not as young as I used to be either!

Spoonie_Turtle

MattMattMattUK said:

JSHarris said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I am better off on Octopus Tracker, I will be better off on Octopus Intelligent/Go when I get an EV, it is not rocket science.

I beg to differ with your last phrase, really an echo of the excellent point made by @Spoonie_Turtle when he referred to mental capacity and time.  People that can optimise their use of complex tariffs are very definitely in the minority, and even those that can right now (and I count myself partly in that category) may well lose the ability to continue doing this as they age.

It takes a fair bit of time and effort to get to grips with many of the complex tariffs offered by suppliers like Octopus, especially when it comes to determining whether any of them really do offer a better deal for any particular use case.

I'm one of the small group of unfortunates unable to take advantage of smart tariffs, for reasons wholly outwith my control, but what I've learned, by force of circumstance, is that there are some very definite upsides to having to accept a relatively simple tariff.  It annoys me that I can't get a better deal, but having to make the best of a bad job has taught me that simple tariffs are very easy to manage, and require no effort at all on my part, other than to ensure that time switches are set correctly.

As we have managed to heat our 1400square foot home, have adequate hot water, cook our meals, stay entertained and run our electric car for a total cost of about £750 this year I don't feel that I've done too badly with our simple tariff.  I don't feel that we've had too much adverse impact on the environment, either, as looking at the carbon intensity of the grid at the times when we use power it seems to be about as low as it ever gets.

Whilst complex tariffs, that offer very good opportunities for some to make good use of them, have their place, I do feel that there are, at least for now, some major issues when it comes to getting the majority of consumers to understand how they work and have the time (and willingness) to take best advantage of them.  Perhaps technology will catch up and become massively more reliable than it is right now, in which case some of my concerns may become moot.  However, given that some, perhaps most, of the technology bottlenecks are down to the laws of physics I'm not that confident that the issues will all be resolved.

Maybe rocket science was a tad unfair, but let us be realistic, it is well within the capacity of the vast majority and many are choosing not do work it out, rather than unable to. It is the kind of thing that anyone mildly proficient with a spreadsheet could do in less than half an hour, and that means pretty much everyone who completed secondary education in the last thirty years. I totally agree that those who cannot cope should be helped, but the vast majority are will not, rather than can not.

You're not understanding that a lot of people are simply too frazzled to do it.  They may not have the time at all as you initially acknowledged, or they may actually have the time but simply no spare mental energy and they are forced to use what free time they have to try and switch off mentally.  That's what I meant by capacity, not that people don't have the intellectual skill to do it, but simply that they have no mental energy to spare to tackle it.

There's a reason social media has become the lowest common denominator and extremely simplistic, so that people who have no spare thinking ability left in their hectic and overwhelmed lives can still give social media platforms their clicks and 'engagement' (what a disingenuous word for something that requires minimal brain usage) to create revenue.

JSHarris

It is very easy to assume that everyone, or even the majority, are able to understand physical concepts that some find easy.  Perhaps a crass example, but as an illustration, one common theme that came up several times during witness evidence to the Covid enquiry was that Boris Johnson simply couldn't get his head around graphs or exponential growth, even when it was explained to him several times.  Doesn't matter what you think of the man, he is relatively well educated (Eton, then a BA at Balliol College, Oxford).  If he struggles with fairly basic mathematical concepts then it's a pretty fair bet that a large proportion of the general population do too.

A more down to earth example might be my wife.  Well-educated, a qualified paediatric nurse (Great Ormond St), but there is no way she can understand complex energy tariffs.  She struggles to understand how our simple E7 tariff works, as she has a blind spot when it comes to even fairly simple maths and physics, her brain just isn't wired for it.

debitcardmayhem

MattMattMattUK said:

That is nothing to do with your age and everything to do with the way that most of the suppliers now choose to hide the tariff information labels on their websites, usually behind some kind of quote system. Octopus are very good at making them clearly displayed, EDF clearly publish all their current and historical tariffs as clearly named and correctly referenced PDFs, some other suppliers hide them in parts of the website that whilst publicly accessible are not actually accessible by using the menu system on the site, one can only reach them if they know the correct address, or via a link from a Google search. 

Where exactly then? I want to find out where the tentacled one makes it very clear, because at my age 72, and having had two mini strokes (TIAs) on the app it wants you to go their quote system, same on a web browser.

Mind you looking at google is a help try this https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=octoplus+flux+tariff

OH you get this

Click on that and see how clear it is.

I have been with Octopus since early this year, and I have no real qualms but I want to compare my tariff with others available not possible without going through the quote system. In fact I wanted to check AGILE, and lo they sent me an email agreeing to switch. Now I don't want to switch but I just wanted to find out more. Their web site is not very user friendly at all , and often the app is as much use as an IHD. The only problem (other) with them is I have waited 6+ months for a min

i.

Fortunately there are many knowledgeable(minus 1 who I am sure sure you will know @dolor) folks on this forum can I can rely on.