Replacement Juliette balcony door with UPVC

AliceBanned

Hello

I have requested quotes from two companies, and more a few months ago, for a patio style door to replace the old aluminium ones in my bedroom - to the balcony.

The flat is 30 years old and has NSH and is freezing in winter. I was going to move this year but due to Liz Truss etc I have to put that on hold for at least another year, maybe two. I can't face another winter in a freezing cold bedroom with condensation dripping off the window onto the carpet - carpet is damaged and needs replacing due to previous owners ignoring this. I live in Hertfordshire.

The main bedroom where the door is, only has a convector style heater on the wall as the flat is electricity only, I didn't use it a lot, maybe half an hour twice a day, because it only really got the room up to about 15 degrees and is too small for the room, which has a balcony too big for the room. Especially last year for obvious reasons it seemed wasteful to have it on - I had the big storage heater in the living room on to heat most of the flat, and a smaller one in the hallway when it was below freezing outside, as it got too much.

I have two recent quotes from reputable looking companies - from local authority and Which websites..one has come in at £1300 for UPVC sliding doors and the other £1800. The flat is on the second floor. Also I am unsure whether to change for a door and window, as some of the neighbours have, rather than sliding doors, as that isn't much more expensive.

I'm tempted to go with the cheaper one which has 'A+13' on the quote for the spec of double glazing (£1300). For this they will remove the wooden surround and the step/threshold and replace the whole lot with UPVC. It's hard to come to a final decision as although they are insured and supply FENSA certificate, I am unsure how much difference the upgrade will make to the cold, given that I want to move in a year or two. I just can't stand the way it is and can't replace the carpet which is a bit mouldy unless I replace the door. when I sell though I may loose out, am I being too extravagant (ie not wanting to live with mould and condensation lol)? I've already spent about £5k on upgrades to the flat which looked very dated, and it does a bit. People think it was early eighties build rather than 1993. It even had artex ceilings.

Thanks for any advice.

FreeBear

AliceBanned said: I'm tempted to go with the cheaper one which has 'A+13' on the quote for the spec of double glazing (£1300). For this they will remove the wooden surround and the step/threshold and replace the whole lot with UPVC.

To be honest, A+ or A++ makes little difference (the rating is usually the frames). The glass is the biggest area of heat loss, and current regs require a u-value of 1.4 W/m²K and you won't get much better without going to triple glazed. What is most important is the quality of installation. If the installer does a sloppy job and leaves gaps around the frame, cold draughts will blow through ruining any A+ rating - Make sure they use plenty of expanding foam on the inside, mastic all round on the outside, and plenty of screws.

I've recently had the last few windows & door replaced here, and it has made a huge difference during the winter months. Virtually no condensation on the glass (even in the bathroom), and the whole house is so much easier to keep warm. Mind you, the old windows were poorly fitted, leaving ruddy great draughts to come in...

AliceBanned

That's helpful FreeBear. It's a tricky one then in terms of fitting as one clause in the quote from one says ' in no way will the company guarantee by itself or its representatives that condensation can be eliminated or reduced'. There is no mention of insultation/foam or mastic though I presume this would be standard? thanks

silvercar

As it’s a flat, do you need consent from the managing agents or freeholder?

AliceBanned

Good point. I will check but many of the flat owners have replaced theirs.

FreeBear

AliceBanned said: It's a tricky one then in terms of fitting as one clause in the quote from one says ' in no way will the company guarantee by itself or its representatives that condensation can be eliminated or reduced'.

If you can get the room temperature up to say 16°C at night, that will go a long way in preventing condensation forming. It certainly helps here, but I appreciate it may be a problem for you, especially if you only have electric heating.

TELLIT01

UPVC will be less prone to condensation build up on the inside than aluminium, and modern double glazing will provide better thermal insulation than that from old double glazing which tended to have a very small gap between panes. 

Thinking aloud really, but would sliding door be more likely to allow draughts through and a conventional single door and glazed side panel?

thearchitect

I'm afraid this is going to sound a bit negative but bear with me.

The key to a comfortable internal environment in any house is to heat not just the air, but the walls (and floors) themselves - to build-up thermal mass.   That slows the rate at which a room cools once the heating is off.

If you are only using your electric heaters for short periods then you are not building-up any thermal mass.  The walls stay relatively cold and either surface or interstitial condensation forms, the later being particularly insidious as it cannot be seen.

My concern is that improving the window/door isn't going to address that fundamental problem and you'll have spent £1,300 for limited benefit.

This will sound glib (trust me, I live in single glazed, listed Victorian villa) but have you considered thermally lined full height curtains for the opening as a stop-gap?

AliceBanned

TELLIT01 said:

UPVC will be less prone to condensation build up on the inside than aluminium, and modern double glazing will provide better thermal insulation than that from old double glazing which tended to have a very small gap between panes. 

Thinking aloud really, but would sliding door be more likely to allow draughts through and a conventional single door and glazed side panel?

Possibly. Sliding doors tend to have larger panes of glass too. So hard to decide. Some neighbours have door and one pane with separate window. It’s quite nice and not more pricey but the door has to open in to the room. It’s not a massive room so that can be a problem. I recently ordered an ottoman bed to help with storage but settled on a double rather than small double as I won’t be living here to a long time so seemed sensible not to base bed and mattress choice on the current room. 

AliceBanned

thearchitect said:

I'm afraid this is going to sound a bit negative but bear with me.

The key to a comfortable internal environment in any house is to heat not just the air, but the walls (and floors) themselves - to build-up thermal mass.   That slows the rate at which a room cools once the heating is off.

If you are only using your electric heaters for short periods then you are not building-up any thermal mass.  The walls stay relatively cold and either surface or interstitial condensation forms, the later being particularly insidious as it cannot be seen.

My concern is that improving the window/door isn't going to address that fundamental problem and you'll have spent £1,300 for limited benefit.

This will sound glib (trust me, I live in single glazed, listed Victorian villa) but have you considered thermally lined full height curtains for the opening as a stop-gap?

No it makes sense what you are saying. I have full length fairly thick curtains with a separate thermal liner to attach to the back of them in winter. I am sure even thicker curtains would work better. They made a difference in cosy feel but not really to the temperature. The previous owners had very thin unlined curtains. 

What I have considered is getting a large ish oil-filled radiator. I don’t spend much time in there all winter so doesn’t seem worth keeping it warm but I get what you are saying. The room has two outside walls which doesn’t help but I am in a top floor flat so it shouldn’t be this freezing - seems to be good loft insulation.

tbh it has put me off buying another electric- only property. Despite the move away from fossil fuels I really want GCH and a wood burner and coal lol. 

AliceBanned

Ps I also feel that heating the room more with those windows and outside walls is fruitless though that may be my perception- with good new upvc I hope to see a difference but it’s hard to tell whether it would really help.