Has the seller of our new house given land away? House boundary question

MsWils

We are due to complete on an off market property purchase of a house next to the house we are currently renting in the next 4 weeks. The seller is a very nice old couple who are downsizing. Their garden is something like a magic garden with twisted vines and many different kinds of trees and shrubs. Its lovely! Especially as its on a 1970's housing estate. 
Anyway around the perimeter of the garden the have huge bushes over a meter wide. When we've looked at the title deeds it looks like they've planted then quite far into their own garden and its the outer side of the bush that is the boundary. 
Because he is very friendly with the neighbours on both sides, as they've all lived here years he's talking as if the bush is shared. This isn't much of a problem now but this would be a problem for when we want to create a driveway like most of the other houses have done already. And with the other side of the garden (our rental house), he did say that they'd eaten into some of his land with their shed. 
The rental house we are in has had plans approved and on their plans they have conveniently moved the boundary into our new house land to give themselves move space as they had already extended into their half of the shared land between the houses. 

Both houses either side are due to go up for sale in the coming year. 

My question is, is this something that can be sorted at a later date or do we have to get to the bottom of it before? 

and

Because the sellers bushes have been there years does this mean he's effectively given up his land?

eddddy

If the location of the boundary is important to you (e.g. because you want to create a driveway), I would aim to get this resolved before you purchase.

Perhaps by asking the seller to arrange a 'boundary agreement' with their neighbours...

 See: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/boundary-agreements-and-determined-boundaries/practice-guide-40-land-registry-plans-supplement-4-boundary-agreements-and-determined-boundaries#determined-boundary-plan-requirements



What will you do if a satisfactory agreement can't be reached between the seller and the neighbour - i.e. the neighbour insists the boundary is somewhere else, which would leave you insufficient space for a drive?

• Would you buy anyway at the current price?
• Would you reduce your offer?
• Would you walk away?
• Would you want the seller to start a "legal fight" with their neighbour?

moneysaver1978

Off market but surely solicitors are involved, right? If so, what did they say or suggest?

ThisIsWeird

MsWils said:

1) The rental house we are in has had plans approved and on their plans they have conveniently moved the boundary into our new house land to give themselves move space as they had already extended into their half of the shared land between the houses. 

2) My question is, is this something that can be sorted at a later date or do we have to get to the bottom of it before?

3) Because the sellers bushes have been there years does this mean he's effectively given up his land?

1) This needs sorting NOW, and before you commit to buy. We obviously cannot comment on whether the owner of the rental house you are in now has knowingly or unintentionally assumed where the correct boundary line is, but the fact they have had extension plans approved indicates they have every intention of grabbing it.

2) It might be sortable after purchase, but the best case scenario will be that the owner of the rental house will be inconvenienced by a late change to their plans, and will be more likely to attempt a 'claim' on this land, tho' that is not to say it'll be successful. Chances are any such attempt won't be successful - people are allowed to plant shrubs wherever they want in their garden, and that doesn't move a boundary! But if they start building, and this encroaches on 'your' land, it becomes a whole lot messier, and fall-outs are almost inevitable.

3) No. I've planted some trees around 2 metres from a boundary. Does that mean my boundary has moved? Of course not. But if I stood back and watched my neighbour get plans for building an extension that encroached over this space, and sat on my hands about it, I'd be storing up extra problems.

You have seemingly all the info you require. You know where the true boundary is located (I assume?), and you know that the neighb has redrawn this boundary on their submitted plans. You bring these two facts to the attention of your conveyancing solicitor in a matter-of-fact way, and ask that they sort this out asap with the seller's solicitor. Or go for the method linked to by eddddy.

How 'obvious' is it where the true boundary lies? What features are there - house corners, gate pillars, etc - that can be used as position markers when referring to the deeds plans?

DON'T procrastinate. :-)

theoretica

MsWils said:

We are due to complete on an off market property purchase of a house next to the house we are currently renting in the next 4 weeks. The seller is a very nice old couple who are downsizing. Their garden is something like a magic garden with twisted vines and many different kinds of trees and shrubs. Its lovely! Especially as its on a 1970's housing estate. 
Anyway around the perimeter of the garden the have huge bushes over a meter wide. When we've looked at the title deeds it looks like they've planted then quite far into their own garden and its the outer side of the bush that is the boundary. 
Because he is very friendly with the neighbours on both sides, as they've all lived here years he's talking as if the bush is shared. This isn't much of a problem now but this would be a problem for when we want to create a driveway like most of the other houses have done already. And with the other side of the garden (our rental house), he did say that they'd eaten into some of his land with their shed. 
The rental house we are in has had plans approved and on their plans they have conveniently moved the boundary into our new house land to give themselves move space as they had already extended into their half of the shared land between the houses. 

Both houses either side are due to go up for sale in the coming year. 

My question is, is this something that can be sorted at a later date or do we have to get to the bottom of it before? 

and

Because the sellers bushes have been there years does this mean he's effectively given up his land?

What exactly do you mean by the bit in bold?  Who approved what plans?  What shared land? 

What actually shows on the land registry?  Is anything shared?  Not registered yet? (and what does the rest of the estate look like in similar places?)  I like this site for looking at the map online https://www.landregistry-uk.com/map-search

MsWils

theoretica said:

MsWils said:

We are due to complete on an off market property purchase of a house next to the house we are currently renting in the next 4 weeks. The seller is a very nice old couple who are downsizing. Their garden is something like a magic garden with twisted vines and many different kinds of trees and shrubs. Its lovely! Especially as its on a 1970's housing estate. 
Anyway around the perimeter of the garden the have huge bushes over a meter wide. When we've looked at the title deeds it looks like they've planted then quite far into their own garden and its the outer side of the bush that is the boundary. 
Because he is very friendly with the neighbours on both sides, as they've all lived here years he's talking as if the bush is shared. This isn't much of a problem now but this would be a problem for when we want to create a driveway like most of the other houses have done already. And with the other side of the garden (our rental house), he did say that they'd eaten into some of his land with their shed. 
The rental house we are in has had plans approved and on their plans they have conveniently moved the boundary into our new house land to give themselves move space as they had already extended into their half of the shared land between the houses. 

Both houses either side are due to go up for sale in the coming year. 

My question is, is this something that can be sorted at a later date or do we have to get to the bottom of it before? 

and

Because the sellers bushes have been there years does this mean he's effectively given up his land?

What exactly do you mean by the bit in bold?  Who approved what plans?  What shared land? 

What actually shows on the land registry?  Is anything shared?  Not registered yet? (and what does the rest of the estate look like in similar places?)  I like this site for looking at the map online https://www.landregistry-uk.com/map-search

Im not sure why its in bold :'D. The land registry shows what we believe to be the boundary. The previous owners of the house we are living in developed this house (the rental) before our friends (landlords) developed their own plans to do it again. The original development has plans submitted to the planning dept available on line which shows the boundary as reflected on the land registry. Currently this part of the boundary there is no fence and an open space. The previous owner built right up with their extension but then built a wall and path that encroaches on our new houses land. The seller has been quite ok with this. However, we are willing to leave that but the rest of the land they have space for a small walkway down the side of their property and the rest is ours. The new development for the rental made by our friends, the architects drawing submitted to planning have drawn the boundary over the new house land as it just looks more convenient for them to have a bigger walkway around the house.
Now that they are both selling and there won't be friends sharing this shared space and we might possibly develop this bit of land ourselves we would like to erect a fence. 

The other neighbours where we might build the drive have their bushes trimmed to their boundary and so maybe they will be ok if we removed the bushes and erected a fence. However, I'm just a bit worried as the way the seller is talking he's just gifting them all this land. 
We haven't received any paperwork from the solicitors yet and I don't want to mention it to them as we really need to get this through as quickly as possible as the rent we are paying is a fortune. 

I guess I need to know if the seller is allowed to just give away this land or if the title deeds will be the deciding factor for any disputes in the future. Ive read that title deed boundaries are not accurate and they can easily be contested especially if there's been some sort of boundary in the wrong place for a long time.  Thanks

TheJP

Are you currently renting the house next door to the house you are trying to buy? The landlords of your rental and the seller of the house you are buying have agreed to shift the boundary?

Why would any seller agree to gift some of the land at the same time they are selling.

This is a very odd scenario.

ThisIsWeird

Folk can give away or sell land if they want, but it needs doing legally and be recorded on the LR docs.

There's a steady trickle of threads on here where the new owner of a property finds out, after moving in, that the boundary fence is not in the correct place, and what can they do about it. In most cases, they can force the boundary to go back to its rightful place, but who the heck wants that headache - and almost certain falling out.

 Your description is probably quite clear, but - man - it gave me the 'ache to try and follow it... A diagram would help a lot. Ideally something like the LR deeds plan, with the new 'actuality' drawn over it.

Are you saying that some of this land has actually been 'taken'? Has a physical construction on it - even if 'just' a pathway? Any actual building on the encroached part?

I urge you to have this sorted before progressing any further. Alternatively, you could sell the encroached bits to the new owner once you've moved in, but you'd certainly want it recorded now that the boundary is inaccurate, and the status quo cannot remain.

Even if you are 'happy' to accept a partial encroachment, this will remain an issue when either of you come to sell. So you either make the encroachment 'official' (sell, or as a gift, but the legalities must be sorted - the other party to cover all the legal costs), or you insist it's restored to its correct position.

eddddy

MsWils said:

I guess I need to know if the seller is allowed to just give away this land or if the title deeds will be the deciding factor for any disputes in the future. 

You can't rely on Land Registry title plans to decide where the boundary is - they only give a rough idea...

If you live in England or Wales, there’s usually no record of:

• the exact boundary between two properties

• who owns the hedge, wall, tree or fence between 2 properties

You can get an idea of where the boundaries for your property are by looking at its title plan. Most title plans don’t show exact boundaries - you usually don’t need to have the exact boundaries recorded anywhere.


Link: https://www.gov.uk/your-property-boundaries

That's why I suggested you ask the seller to draw up a 'boundary agreement' with the neighbour. You then have a precise legal agreement of where the boundary is.

MsWils

TheJP said:

Are you currently renting the house next door to the house you are trying to buy? The landlords of your rental and the seller of the house you are buying have agreed to shift the boundary?

Why would any seller agree to gift some of the land at the same time they are selling.

This is a very odd scenario.

I think the couple we are buying off are just so laid back they think everyone will be happy with the same arrangement. And they were pretty good friends with the people we are renting off. The new plans the landlords produced is not extending the property but nevertheless on their plans the boundary has shifted. I just worry that when we want to put a fence up and they find the open space they are used to is reduced to a narrow path down the Sid eof their house they won't be happy. 

MsWils

So that goes back to my original question. They are long term friends with both sides of neighbours. We've got to know them a bit by living in the rental which is why they offered us to buy their house.. so if he and the other neighbours draw up a boundary agreement he can literally just give them it.. ?