Electrician Overcharge Complaint

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

Which legislation are you referring to there because it's one that apparently every solicitor in the UK breaks every day when quoting their fees. 

Our good old friend the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations. 

There's only one reason I can think of to state prices are £x plus VAT, when dealing with consumers, and that's to make the price more appealing than it actually is, VAT is of no concern to a consumer. 

user1977

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

Which legislation are you referring to there because it's one that apparently every solicitor in the UK breaks every day when quoting their fees. 

Our good old friend the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations. 

Can you point to the specific provision in there? I know there is a rule (I think somewhere else) about prices of items being sold to consumers, but as said, it's pretty commonplace for trades/professions to quote prices for their services ex VAT.

powerful_Rogue

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The callout fee should be £69 including VAT and the hourly rate £295 including VAT.

The invoices appear to have it added on afterwards making the call out fee £82.80 and the hourly rate £354.

Their admin fee is not presented in a way I think the average person would understand.

I'd pay them £364 hghlighting

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/schedule/2

the total price of the [F2goods, services or digital content] inclusive of taxes, or where the nature of the [F2goods, services or digital content] is such that the price cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, the manner in which the price is to be calculated,

and that net + VAT prices can not be given to consumers plus the admin fee is presented in a misleading manner (10% would be typical) which is a breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations so if they want to sue you for the extra £120 go for it and you'll be ready to defend the claim. 

They couldn't be quoted the actual total price because it was a per hour rate but they've been clearly told how the final price would be calculated. 

No, you can not display x per hour + VAT to a consumer, the manner in which the price is to be calculated must be gross. 

£100 per hour + VAT not acceptable, £120 per hour acceptable.  

Are you sure about that?

Where goods are offered for sale to consumers they must have their price clearly indicated and be inclusive of VAT. This is controlled by the Price Marking Order 2004, which applies to goods only and is limited to sales between traders and consumers. It does not apply to services or to goods supplied in the course of the provision of a service; nor does it apply to sales by auction, sales of works of art or antiques.

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/businesses/trading-standards/fair-trading-and-pricing

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

powerful_Rogue said:

Are you sure about that?

Yeap, I didn't mention the Price Marking Order 2004.

The call out fee is £69 plus VAT plus 0.1 of the bill (Decimal).

To get to the correct callout fee of £91.08 the customer needs to know the applicable rate of VAT is 20% (the terms don't mention the rate of VAT and it wouldn't surprise me if many people don't know it's 20%), that 0.1 (Decimal) means 10% and have the knowledge to do the maths to get the final figure.

The main rate of VAT has been 17.5%, 15% and 20% over the last 15 years or so, certain things are rated at different percentages and there are instances where special rates are applied for certain periods. At the main rate it's 20% on the net and 16.6% off the gross. 

There is no reason to state the fee is £69 plus, plus rather than simply £91.08 other than to make it look much cheaper than it is and I think the average person would struggle with the calculation. 

It's, IMO, a misleading action which is a prohibited commercial practice under the Unfair Trading Regs. 

The admin fees makes it worse but even with basic + VAT I don't think it meets the regs unless a trader has a very good reason for wishing to display pricing in such a way. 

powerful_Rogue

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Are you sure about that?

Yeap, I didn't mention the Price Marking Order 2004.

The call out fee is £69 plus VAT plus 0.1 of the bill (Decimal).

To get to the correct callout fee of £91.08 the customer needs to know the applicable rate of VAT is 20% (the terms don't mention the rate of VAT and it wouldn't surprise me if many people don't know it's 20%), that 0.1 (Decimal) means 10% and have the knowledge to do the maths to get the final figure.

The main rate of VAT has been 17.5%, 15% and 20% over the last 15 years or so, certain things are rated at different percentages and there are instances where special rates are applied for certain periods. At the main rate it's 20% on the net and 16.6% off the gross. 

There is no reason to state the fee is £69 plus, plus rather than simply £91.08 other than to make it look much cheaper than it is and I think the average person would struggle with the calculation. 

It's, IMO, a misleading action which is a prohibited commercial practice under the Unfair Trading Regs. 

The admin fees makes it worse but even with basic + VAT I don't think it meets the regs unless a trader has a very good reason for wishing to display pricing in such a way. 

You said the price calculated must be gross, that is incorrect for services.

It's all well and good stating what you have posted above is 'in your opinion', but anything to back it up?

tightauldgit

You've gone quite quickly from a strong statement of fact to IMO and 'i think' 

One reason to quote ex vat prices to consumers other than to con them would be to allow fair comparison of prices if it's standard industry practice. 

Another reason when providing forward looking quotes would be to allow for future changes in VAT rate over which the trader has no control and which could negatively impact trader or consumer.

You can certainly make a case that it's too complicated for the consumer but it's primary school maths so I don't know how the court would come down. How incompetent do they assume the average consumer to be? 

It seems we agree now though that's there is nothing explicitly saying that you can't quite hourly rates ex vat on estimates/quotes?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

powerful_Rogue said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Are you sure about that?

Yeap, I didn't mention the Price Marking Order 2004.

The call out fee is £69 plus VAT plus 0.1 of the bill (Decimal).

To get to the correct callout fee of £91.08 the customer needs to know the applicable rate of VAT is 20% (the terms don't mention the rate of VAT and it wouldn't surprise me if many people don't know it's 20%), that 0.1 (Decimal) means 10% and have the knowledge to do the maths to get the final figure.

The main rate of VAT has been 17.5%, 15% and 20% over the last 15 years or so, certain things are rated at different percentages and there are instances where special rates are applied for certain periods. At the main rate it's 20% on the net and 16.6% off the gross. 

There is no reason to state the fee is £69 plus, plus rather than simply £91.08 other than to make it look much cheaper than it is and I think the average person would struggle with the calculation. 

It's, IMO, a misleading action which is a prohibited commercial practice under the Unfair Trading Regs. 

The admin fees makes it worse but even with basic + VAT I don't think it meets the regs unless a trader has a very good reason for wishing to display pricing in such a way. 

You said the price calculated must be gross, that is incorrect for services.

It's all well and good stating what you have posted above is 'in your opinion', but anything to back it up?

https://www.businesscompanion.info/sites/default/files/Guidance-for-Traders-on-Pricing-Practices-Apr-2018.pdf

This glossary contains explanations or words and expressions as they are used in this guidance.

Product:  Defined widely to include goods, services, digital content, immovable property, rights

and obligations or the demand of payment from a consumer in settlement of a liability

There are certain general requirements that a trader should consider when pricing products for sale. In addition to the

Regulations, overlapping obligations can be found in the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional

Charges) Regulations 201312 and the Price Marking Order 2004.

13 Visit www.businesscompanion.info for advice and

guidance on these requirements.

These general requirements apply to all of your pricing practices and should be read in conjunction with the rest of this

guidance.

DO indicate the total price of the product inclusive of taxes when you invite consumers to purchase it.14 If the nature of

the product means that the price cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, indicate how the price will be calculated

- for example, fabric on a roll is priced by the metre.

DO provide all additional freight, delivery and postal charges in or with the price.15 If those charges cannot reasonably

be calculated in advance, tell consumers that they may be payable - for example, ‘Delivery charges apply and vary

according to destination’.

DO include all compulsory fees and charges in the price.16

DO show unit prices where required by the Price Marking Order 2004.17

DON’T charge consumers a fee for using a credit card or debit card.18

DON’T use a default option (such as a pre-ticked box on a website) in order to obtain a consumer’s consent to

an additional fee or charge.19

16 Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, regulations 5 and 6

powerful_Rogue

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

powerful_Rogue said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

powerful_Rogue said:

Are you sure about that?

Yeap, I didn't mention the Price Marking Order 2004.

The call out fee is £69 plus VAT plus 0.1 of the bill (Decimal).

To get to the correct callout fee of £91.08 the customer needs to know the applicable rate of VAT is 20% (the terms don't mention the rate of VAT and it wouldn't surprise me if many people don't know it's 20%), that 0.1 (Decimal) means 10% and have the knowledge to do the maths to get the final figure.

The main rate of VAT has been 17.5%, 15% and 20% over the last 15 years or so, certain things are rated at different percentages and there are instances where special rates are applied for certain periods. At the main rate it's 20% on the net and 16.6% off the gross. 

There is no reason to state the fee is £69 plus, plus rather than simply £91.08 other than to make it look much cheaper than it is and I think the average person would struggle with the calculation. 

It's, IMO, a misleading action which is a prohibited commercial practice under the Unfair Trading Regs. 

The admin fees makes it worse but even with basic + VAT I don't think it meets the regs unless a trader has a very good reason for wishing to display pricing in such a way. 

You said the price calculated must be gross, that is incorrect for services.

It's all well and good stating what you have posted above is 'in your opinion', but anything to back it up?

https://www.businesscompanion.info/sites/default/files/Guidance-for-Traders-on-Pricing-Practices-Apr-2018.pdf

This glossary contains explanations or words and expressions as they are used in this guidance.

Product:  Defined widely to include goods, services, digital content, immovable property, rights

and obligations or the demand of payment from a consumer in settlement of a liability

There are certain general requirements that a trader should consider when pricing products for sale. In addition to the

Regulations, overlapping obligations can be found in the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional

Charges) Regulations 201312 and the Price Marking Order 2004.

13 Visit www.businesscompanion.info for advice and

guidance on these requirements.

These general requirements apply to all of your pricing practices and should be read in conjunction with the rest of this

guidance.

DO indicate the total price of the product inclusive of taxes when you invite consumers to purchase it.14 If the nature of

the product means that the price cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, indicate how the price will be calculated

- for example, fabric on a roll is priced by the metre.

DO provide all additional freight, delivery and postal charges in or with the price.15 If those charges cannot reasonably

be calculated in advance, tell consumers that they may be payable - for example, ‘Delivery charges apply and vary

according to destination’.

DO include all compulsory fees and charges in the price.16

DO show unit prices where required by the Price Marking Order 2004.17

DON’T charge consumers a fee for using a credit card or debit card.18

DON’T use a default option (such as a pre-ticked box on a website) in order to obtain a consumer’s consent to

an additional fee or charge.19

16 Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, regulations 5 and 6

That's guidance though. Doesn't negate the fact someone offering a service can list it as £x per hour + VAT

tightauldgit

Not only guidance but reading 14 an 16 together the trader has complied with them. They have shown how the price will be calculated and included all compulsory fees and charges in that price calculation. 

A call out fee of £X

An hourly rate of £X (and note that the OP actually could have been charged 2 hours rather than 1.5 for the part hour)

An admin fee of 0.1x the fees above

VAT to be added to the total of the above. 

If someone says they read the information provided by the trader and didn't know they would have to pay an admin fee or VAT then I simply don't believe them. More likely they didn't properly read what they received. 

You can argue whether the charges seem reasonable (they really don't) but that doesn't mean they weren't explained. 

Kortatu85

Thank you so much for your valuable comments. The spirited debate has really made me reflect on the situation, and it's become evident that the conditions were indeed unclear. I must also acknowledge my own mistake in accepting everything too hastily. 

To ensure a better reading of the whole situation, I would like to provide a timeline of events:

I initially contacted an electrician, who quoted a price of £69 to simply assess the situation. There was no mention of any administrative fees or VAT charges at that point

The electrician finally arrived at my place on Saturday evening, after not showing up on both Friday and Saturday morning. It was at this time that they sent me an email containing all the terms and conditions, which were only presented at the start of the work. I want to emphasize that these terms and conditions were not shared with me beforehand.

Given these circumstances, I can't help but feel a bit concerned that I may have inadvertently fallen into a scam