Ryanair - refund of flight tickets during Covid

Viking64

We paid for flight tickets prior to Covid. Like Nick Blades (who won his small claims court case against Ryanair), we decided not to fly on the basis of the FCDO's advice against non-essential travel. We have approached them through dispute resolution. Ryanair will not refund us, stating we are not 'passengers' as we did not check in and therefore are not defined as passengers! Why would we, if we weren't travelling?  (Regulation 261).
Ryanair's original defence against Nick Blades was that the flight had not been cancelled.
Wondering now how to respond as we don't through what mechanism Mr Blades managed to win his case. Obviously he went to small claims, whereas we are using ADR. And small claims rulings do not set a precedent, but that's what these folk rely on, I imagine.

Could anyone help (soon as we have to respond within a week; Ryanair got 11 weeks, just saying).

With many thanks.

eskbanker

Viking64 said:

Ryanair will not refund us, stating we are not 'passengers' as we did not check in and therefore are not defined as passengers! Why would we, if we weren't travelling?  (Regulation 261).

I don't know the specific lines of argument used in the Nick Blades case but the check-in wording is within article 3 of the regulations:

Paragraph 1 shall apply on the condition that passengers:

(a) have a confirmed reservation on the flight concerned and, except in the case of cancellation referred to in Article 5, present themselves for check-in,

• as stipulated and at the time indicated in advance and in writing (including by electronic means) by the air carrier, the tour operator or an authorised travel agent,

or, if no time is indicated,

• not later than 45 minutes before the published departure time; or [...]

born_again

Would be better in travel section.

Caz3121

I guess it was luck of the judge on the day....as you correctly state, no precedence. 
The CMA could not get a ruling so abandoned their investigation for those that could not travel due lockdown rules
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cma-closes-investigation-into-british-airways-and-ryanair#:~:text=The CMA has concluded that,flying by Covid travel restrictions. 
Are you liable for costs if you lose? did your travel insurance cover the situation?

Viking64

eskbanker said:

Viking64 said:

Ryanair will not refund us, stating we are not 'passengers' as we did not check in and therefore are not defined as passengers! Why would we, if we weren't travelling?  (Regulation 261).

I don't know the specific lines of argument used in the Nick Blades case but the check-in wording is within article 3 of the regulations:

Paragraph 1 shall apply on the condition that passengers:

(a) have a confirmed reservation on the flight concerned and, except in the case of cancellation referred to in Article 5, present themselves for check-in,

• as stipulated and at the time indicated in advance and in writing (including by electronic means) by the air carrier, the tour operator or an authorised travel agent,

or, if no time is indicated,

• not later than 45 minutes before the published departure time; or [...]

Thanks. Yes, I had seen that. Doesn't clear up how Nick Blades got his money back though.

Viking64

Caz3121 said:

I guess it was luck of the judge on the day....as you correctly state, no precedence. 
The CMA could not get a ruling so abandoned their investigation for those that could not travel due lockdown rules
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cma-closes-investigation-into-british-airways-and-ryanair#:~:text=The CMA has concluded that,flying by Covid travel restrictions. 
Are you liable for costs if you lose? did your travel insurance cover the situation?

Insurance wouldn't pay out. We would be liable for expenses in the small claims court if we lost. We are furious about Ryanair. They wriggle out of everything. We had a CAA ruling against them before, but they simply refused to pay out.

Viking64

Not a flight delay but nowhere else to post this!
We paid for flight tickets prior to Covid. Like Nick Blades (who won his small claims court case against Ryanair), we decided not to fly on the basis of the FCDO's advice against non-essential travel. We have approached them through dispute resolution. Ryanair will not refund us, stating we are not 'passengers' as we did not check in and therefore are not defined as passengers! Why would we, if we weren't travelling?  (Regulation 261).
Ryanair's original defence against Nick Blades was that the flight had not been cancelled.
Wondering now how to respond as we don't through what mechanism Mr Blades managed to win his case. Obviously he went to small claims, whereas we are using ADR. And small claims rulings do not set a precedent, but that's what these folk rely on, I imagine.

Could anyone help (soon as we have to respond within a week; Ryanair got 11 weeks, just saying).

With many thanks.

eskbanker

Viking64 said:

eskbanker said:

Viking64 said:

Ryanair will not refund us, stating we are not 'passengers' as we did not check in and therefore are not defined as passengers! Why would we, if we weren't travelling?  (Regulation 261).

I don't know the specific lines of argument used in the Nick Blades case but the check-in wording is within article 3 of the regulations:

Paragraph 1 shall apply on the condition that passengers:

(a) have a confirmed reservation on the flight concerned and, except in the case of cancellation referred to in Article 5, present themselves for check-in,

• as stipulated and at the time indicated in advance and in writing (including by electronic means) by the air carrier, the tour operator or an authorised travel agent,

or, if no time is indicated,

• not later than 45 minutes before the published departure time; or [...]

Thanks. Yes, I had seen that. Doesn't clear up how Nick Blades got his money back though.

Sure, I already made it clear that I didn't know that but was simply highlighting the fact that the above excerpt is something that you need to find a counter-argument for if Ryanair have cited it, as well as constructing the main case for a refund.

Viking64 said:
We are furious about Ryanair.

It's obviously a time for calmness and composure rather than being driven by anger, but what is the basis of your claim so far, i.e. on what legal or regulatory grounds have you asserted that they were obliged to refund you?

Even if you just wanted to piggyback on the Blades case, there doesn't seem to be a readily accessible transcript that I can find, or even any report that articulates the reasoning in any meaningful detail (I don't believe it was discussed on this forum or the likes of FlyerTalk either) - have you tried the court where it was heard perhaps?

CKhalvashi

It may also depend on which airline operated the particular flight. UK government advice will not apply to Ryanair DAC, Buzz, Malta Air or Lauda Europe, but the situation may well be different for Ryanair UK legally, however the CMA dropped their case as they were advised they wouldn't win, so their advice isn't worth the paper it's written on even in the event of Ryanair UK being the operator of the flight.

You are welcome to ignore any travel advice the government gives you, advice is just that. Low cost flights in general are non-refundable and it is your responsibility to meet any entry conditions, so the general principle is that if the flight departed and you chose not to travel/were ineligible to enter the other country this is your responsibility.

I haven't seen the judgement so it wouldn't be reasonable to comment on the special circumstances or merits of that case.