Phase 2 Bat Emergence Survey - so expensive! Any thoughts?

Candice-Marie

We want to apply for planning permission to add a porch to our single-storey, two bed house.  The footprint of our ideal porch will be outside permitted development. 

We had an initial bat survey because a section of roof tiles will need to be removed from one elevation for the work to take place (and then reinstated plus additional matching roof tiles on the porch). The first bat survey concluded that we need the phase 2 survey.  We've been quoted £2750  and told that a team of 3 people will be needed for this survey.  Does anyone have any experience in this area?  We want to do right by any bats, but this cost seems way out of kilter with the modest scope of the building project.

grumbler

Call me cynic, but.... you know what I think.

Any chance that the bat surveyors were recommended by the planing officer? Are there any other bat surveyors around?

Candice-Marie

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a ‘thing’ somewhere, but the planning officer doesn’t recommend anyone, so I’m at the mercy of Google. I did get a recommendation from a local FB group but they are fully booked up all season (these surveys have to happen May-Sept)

twopenny

Phase 2 seems to be dusk and daw with bat dectetors. Even I've used bat detectors. Easy to use.
I guess out of hour s cost? Equipment? Though from what I remember you just adjusted frequencies for each type.
But nearly £3000! Sounds decidedly sus.
What was the remit if the phase 1 survey? Surely it was more than just "yes, you've got bats" 
You're moving a few tiles. You're not boxing them in. Or are you?

babyblade41

We have just had a phase 1 bat survey and that was 900.00.. thankfully we didn't need phase 2 as it is expensive .

The phase 2 usually is a monitored survey over a time period.

You may need to have to wait until the bats leave  or are removed when they can be by a recognised bat specialist

I was dreading it if we needed phase 2 as that would have put our building project back 6 months or more 

Section62

twopenny said:

Phase 2 seems to be dusk and daw with bat dectetors. Even I've used bat detectors. Easy to use.
I guess out of hour s cost? Equipment? Though from what I remember you just adjusted frequencies for each type.
But nearly £3000! Sounds decidedly sus.
What was the remit if the phase 1 survey? Surely it was more than just "yes, you've got bats" 
You're moving a few tiles. You're not boxing them in. Or are you?

If some tiles need to be moved for work to be done and then replaced there's a risk of the bats being disturbed*.

If you "intentionally or recklessly disturb a bat while it’s in a structure or place of shelter or protection" then you've committed a criminal offence - the maximum penalty being 6 months in prison and/or an unlimited fine. (they take this seriously)

If there are bats in the roof (which the result of the phase 1 study would seem to imply) then carrying out work without complying with the law would be very unwise.

(*given how some folk on here jump up and down when a neighbour modifies a fence, drills a hole in the wall, puts up scaffolding etc etc then I reckon the bats would be entitled to feel 'disturbed' if someone starts taking the roof off their home)

Candice-Marie

The phase one survey didn't see any evidence of bats, but our location and the type of roof tiles mean that bats could potentially roost there.  A phase 2 survey needs to be done by a licenced ecologist or the findings will not be accepted by the council's ecologist, so planning approval will not be given.  There is no DIY option.  If/when the type of bats are identified, we would then need a licence to carry out the work, and this will specify what has to be done to mitigate any potential disturbance to bats.  Planning won't be denied if there are bats present, but a condition will be to meet the terms of the licence.  Also the licence is specific to the species of bat found, so you can't just get a licence to cover bats in general.  It can also specify that the work must be carried out Oct - April.

Anyway, my frustration is two-fold.  Firstly, if the planned porch was less than 3m2 we could have just got on with the work, no planning and no bat surveys, and secondly, the area of roof being disturbed is less than 10% of the whole roof area (2 bed converted barn) and when the porch is done, the roof area will be greater than it is now, so bats will have even more potential habitat.

£2750 that may not help a single bat.   I'd rather make a donation to a bat charity, or pay an ecologist to be here when the tiles come off to rehome any bats that might be there (this could well end up being a planning condition, so the expense does not stop at the survey).

But I digress.  I'm still interested to hear what others have been quoted for a phase 2 survey for a small project like this, or any other bright ideas.

PS: We can't make the porch look right and in keeping with the house or provide what we want at under 3m2, so our choice is either bigger porch or no porch.

babyblade41

The price is about right and quite rightly that bats are protected .. even though our barn wasn't a suitable place for bats our ecologist still spent 2 hours with cameras on extendable poles. 

You are in bat breeding season until October... there will be no way round this .

Thankfully this is the law to protect a beautiful species ..you can't DIY bat surveys, they have to be done by registered ecologists.  They don't come cheap

Section62

Candice-Marie said:

Anyway, my frustration is two-fold.  Firstly, if the planned porch was less than 3m2 we could have just got on with the work, no planning and no bat surveys, and secondly, the area of roof being disturbed is less than 10% of the whole roof area (2 bed converted barn) and when the porch is done, the roof area will be greater than it is now, so bats will have even more potential habitat.

Not quite.  If you have the kind of roof which could potentially be a bat habitat you have a duty to check for bats before starting work on it.  Regardless whether the work requires PP or is PD it is still a criminal offence to "intentionally or recklessly disturb a bat".

Look on the bright side - because you have to go through the PP route you've been alerted to the possibility bats might be present and what your responsibilities are.  Less fortunate people could have their builder start work and then have to stop work (possibly with half the roof off) while the situation is resolved... or in the worst case have the kind of builder who will happily kill a bat and leave you on the wrong end of a criminal conviction.

The increased roof area won't necessarily create more bat habitat.  And if the work scares the bats away (or kills them) then having extra habitat is of no particular benefit.  Also, if the new roof is built to modern standards then it won't provide a suitable habitat.

Did the bat issue come up when the barn was originally converted?  Were there planning conditions imposed at the time, and did the planning consent remove permitted development rights?

Candice-Marie

Some good points, thank you 

The barn (ex cow shed to be precise) is one of 4 agricultural buildings that were converted by a developer approx 10 years ago. The neighbouring house is much bigger, and is 2-storey and had to have a bat box. It's about 30m away from us. I'm fairly sure when I looked at the original planning documents they said our building did not require any conditions.  PD rights weren't removed.  The conversion involved a new roof so was built to an appropriate standard as far as I'm aware.  The tiles don't sit flat so that's what the first survey said might be attractive to bats.  There's no real roof void/attic space, the internal ceilings are vaulted and plasterboarded, so I assume if there are bats they are between the tiles and whatever membrane/surface is underneath.

babyblade41

I'm afraid you will have to have phase 2, the price is about right and usually involves siting cameras so the ecologist can check the activity.