EDF Credit Balance Issue

Gerry1

It's crazy for EDG and BG to have six-monthly billing but with monthly DDs.  Predictably it keeps causing problems for lots of people, as we keep seeing here.  It's far worse with today's energy prices and high inflation because the illusory credit balances that customers seek to reclaim are now much higher.

It also means that by the time excessive usage has been detected it's then far too late to cut down, the damage has been done.

It's high time that dozy Ofgem ended this nonsense by making monthly billing compulsory for all suppliers.  Martin should give Ofgem a very sharp nudge !

matt_drummer

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Alnat1 said:

If you would prefer monthly bills, move to a company that does them.

I recommend Octopus for monthly bills that are easy to read and support staff you can easily contact if to have a query.

EDF will offer monthly bills if one is happy with variable Direct Debit. 

That being said I also think Octopus are the better bet. 

This is what I don't understand about companies that bill six monthly.

They obviously can produce monthly bills.

Saying they can't is untrue.

If they can produce monthly bills, why is it dependent on the bill being settled in full?

I can only assume it is a choice they make, nothing is stopping them producing a bill each month, accepting a customers `fixed' monthly direct debit and adjusting the customer's balance accordingly.

For me it is completely unacceptable that they continue to provide their customers with very misleading information.

As it currently stands their billing software cannot process it, that is the reason. If there is a debt it attempts to recover that over the next billing cycle, if that cycle is one month it wants payment in full because there is only one month for it to recover the debt in.

If/when their new billing software comes online at some point in the Q4 2023-Q4 2024 window that might change. 

I can see that they cannot make it work.

I'm an accountant, this is not that difficult, it's simple debits and credits, it's just a sales ledger that most businesses operate, basic accounting.

They can produce monthly bills, it's obviously true that they can.

Their problem is that their system expects the bill to be paid for in full, the problem is not producing a monthly bill.

Tell it not to attempt to recover the bill and deduct it from the customers balance instead.

I know I am over simplifying it, but they have had years and years to work on this, and they chose not to.

It's rubbish and the proof of that is the number of people who think they are owed money when they aren't.

matt_drummer

Thinking about it a bit more.

If they have a process they can carry out every six months with no issue, all they need to do is do it more often.

If their software can debit a customers account with a bill every six months, there is absolutely no reason why they can't carry out the same process more frequently.

I don't believe the problem is their software can't do it, it already does. They just choose not to do it as regularly as I think is necessary.

MattMattMattUK

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Alnat1 said:

If you would prefer monthly bills, move to a company that does them.

I recommend Octopus for monthly bills that are easy to read and support staff you can easily contact if to have a query.

EDF will offer monthly bills if one is happy with variable Direct Debit. 

That being said I also think Octopus are the better bet. 

This is what I don't understand about companies that bill six monthly.

They obviously can produce monthly bills.

Saying they can't is untrue.

If they can produce monthly bills, why is it dependent on the bill being settled in full?

I can only assume it is a choice they make, nothing is stopping them producing a bill each month, accepting a customers `fixed' monthly direct debit and adjusting the customer's balance accordingly.

For me it is completely unacceptable that they continue to provide their customers with very misleading information.

As it currently stands their billing software cannot process it, that is the reason. If there is a debt it attempts to recover that over the next billing cycle, if that cycle is one month it wants payment in full because there is only one month for it to recover the debt in.

If/when their new billing software comes online at some point in the Q4 2023-Q4 2024 window that might change. 

I can see that they cannot make it work.

I'm an accountant, this is not that difficult, it's simple debits and credits, it's just a sales ledger that most businesses operate, basic accounting.

They can produce monthly bills, it's obviously true that they can.

Their problem is that their system expects the bill to be paid for in full, the problem is not producing a monthly bill.

Tell it not to attempt to recover the bill and deduct it from the customers balance instead.

I know I am over simplifying it, but they have had years and years to work on this, and they chose not to.

I would say that they have not chosen to, they have discovered that it is just not possible with their billing system, which is very old, from what I have read online it seems to date from the mid to late nineties, it is based on very old technology, it is very inflexible and is largely based around the idea of a meter reader submitting a reading as they used to do when they visited houses on a periodic basis. At the moment there is a collection of systems that manage billing, more that lead to accounting, various data feeds and plug-ins that have to write in smart reads, as well as a corporate accounting system (probably something SAP?) and then there is the smart meter data side of thigs that is visible in the app and website, but which is not actually part of the billing system. 

It appears they made the decision to upgrade their systems in 2015-2017, looked at options, developing their software etc. and found they were going to need to start from scratch, in the end they ended up licensing Kraken from Octopus in 2021 and will finally get to the deployment stage in 2023-2024 if all goes well.

matt_drummer said:

It's rubbish and the proof of that is the number of people who think they are owed money when they aren't.

I agree it is not the clearest, it is far from ideal, but I would also say it is hardly rocket science. 

matt_drummer said:

Thinking about it a bit more.

If they have a process they can carry out every six months with no issue, all they need to do is do it more often.

If their software can debit a customers account with a bill every six months, there is absolutely no reason why they can't carry out the same process more frequently.

I don't believe the problem is their software can't do it, it already does. They just choose not to do it as regularly as I think is necessary.

It can process the bill every month, but that also ties in with the Direct Debit collection and debt recovery part of the software, which attempts to recover the amount owed over the next billing cycle. There would be manual options if they had a few thousand customers, but they have 5.4 million, it needs to be automated. 

matt_drummer

I don't believe any of it.

They can accept direct debits from a customer twelve times a year.

They can produce monthly bills if they want.

They can produce six monthly bills and deduct the from a customers balance, leaving either a debit or credit on the account.

If they can do that every six months, they can do that every month if they wanted to.

They choose not to as the regulator allows them to and it probably costs them to bill more frequently.

Their system is already capable of producing a bill and debiting a customers account.

The issue can only be the cost of doing so, and that is the reason they only bill once every six months.

CSI_Yorkshire

matt_drummer said:

I don't believe any of it.

They can accept direct debits from a customer twelve times a year.

They can produce monthly bills if they want.

They can produce six monthly bills and deduct the from a customers balance, leaving either a debit or credit on the account.

If they can do that every six months, they can do that every month if they wanted to.

They choose not to as the regulator allows them to and it probably costs them to bill more frequently.

Their system is already capable of producing a bill and debiting a customers account.

The issue can only be the cost of doing so, and that is the reason they only bill once every six months.

I agreed with everything up to that point.

More likely - in their eyes it works now, they don't have to change, there's no penalty for not changing, there's no real benefit to them for changing, and there aren't enough complaints to make them want to change for PR reasons.  Indirectly cost I suppose, but I don't think that's the driver.

matt_drummer

CSI_Yorkshire said:

matt_drummer said:

I don't believe any of it.

They can accept direct debits from a customer twelve times a year.

They can produce monthly bills if they want.

They can produce six monthly bills and deduct the from a customers balance, leaving either a debit or credit on the account.

If they can do that every six months, they can do that every month if they wanted to.

They choose not to as the regulator allows them to and it probably costs them to bill more frequently.

Their system is already capable of producing a bill and debiting a customers account.

The issue can only be the cost of doing so, and that is the reason they only bill once every six months.

I agreed with everything up to that point.

More likely - in their eyes it works now, they don't have to change, there's no penalty for not changing, there's no real benefit to them for changing, and there aren't enough complaints to make them want to change for PR reasons.  Indirectly cost I suppose, but I don't think that's the driver.

The reason I feel that it is cost related is that I suspect that there is an element of human involvement in the billing and allocation of funds process. I don't know how much.

The system is old and probably lacks the automation of a modern system.

What is beyond dispute for me, if you are capable of doing something once every six months, the only thing stopping you doing so more frequently is the manpower and/or the will to do so.

matt_drummer

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Alnat1 said:

If you would prefer monthly bills, move to a company that does them.

I recommend Octopus for monthly bills that are easy to read and support staff you can easily contact if to have a query.

EDF will offer monthly bills if one is happy with variable Direct Debit. 

That being said I also think Octopus are the better bet. 

This is what I don't understand about companies that bill six monthly.

They obviously can produce monthly bills.

Saying they can't is untrue.

If they can produce monthly bills, why is it dependent on the bill being settled in full?

I can only assume it is a choice they make, nothing is stopping them producing a bill each month, accepting a customers `fixed' monthly direct debit and adjusting the customer's balance accordingly.

For me it is completely unacceptable that they continue to provide their customers with very misleading information.

As it currently stands their billing software cannot process it, that is the reason. If there is a debt it attempts to recover that over the next billing cycle, if that cycle is one month it wants payment in full because there is only one month for it to recover the debt in.

If/when their new billing software comes online at some point in the Q4 2023-Q4 2024 window that might change. 

I can see that they cannot make it work.

I'm an accountant, this is not that difficult, it's simple debits and credits, it's just a sales ledger that most businesses operate, basic accounting.

They can produce monthly bills, it's obviously true that they can.

Their problem is that their system expects the bill to be paid for in full, the problem is not producing a monthly bill.

Tell it not to attempt to recover the bill and deduct it from the customers balance instead.

I know I am over simplifying it, but they have had years and years to work on this, and they chose not to.

I would say that they have not chosen to, they have discovered that it is just not possible with their billing system, which is very old, from what I have read online it seems to date from the mid to late nineties, it is based on very old technology, it is very inflexible and is largely based around the idea of a meter reader submitting a reading as they used to do when they visited houses on a periodic basis. At the moment there is a collection of systems that manage billing, more that lead to accounting, various data feeds and plug-ins that have to write in smart reads, as well as a corporate accounting system (probably something SAP?) and then there is the smart meter data side of thigs that is visible in the app and website, but which is not actually part of the billing system. 

It appears they made the decision to upgrade their systems in 2015-2017, looked at options, developing their software etc. and found they were going to need to start from scratch, in the end they ended up licensing Kraken from Octopus in 2021 and will finally get to the deployment stage in 2023-2024 if all goes well.

matt_drummer said:

It's rubbish and the proof of that is the number of people who think they are owed money when they aren't.

I agree it is not the clearest, it is far from ideal, but I would also say it is hardly rocket science. 

matt_drummer said:

Thinking about it a bit more.

If they have a process they can carry out every six months with no issue, all they need to do is do it more often.

If their software can debit a customers account with a bill every six months, there is absolutely no reason why they can't carry out the same process more frequently.

I don't believe the problem is their software can't do it, it already does. They just choose not to do it as regularly as I think is necessary.

It can process the bill every month, but that also ties in with the Direct Debit collection and debt recovery part of the software, which attempts to recover the amount owed over the next billing cycle. There would be manual options if they had a few thousand customers, but they have 5.4 million, it needs to be automated. 

OK, thanks.

Maybe I can see an issue, they have linked direct debits to billing cycles.


It would appear that they have invested little in more than twenty five years on their billing system.

Pretty rubbish if you ask me, I cannot imagine using software from the nineties to produce accounts now. I'm not sure it would even work!

molerat

MattMattMattUK said:

I would say that they have not chosen to, they have discovered that it is just not possible with their billing system, which is very old, from what I have read online it seems to date from the mid to late nineties, it is based on very old technology, it is very inflexible and is largely based around the idea of a meter reader submitting a reading as they used to do when they visited houses on a periodic basis. At the moment there is a collection of systems that manage billing, more that lead to accounting, various data feeds and plug-ins that have to write in smart reads, as well as a corporate accounting system (probably something SAP?) and then there is the smart meter data side of thigs that is visible in the app and website, but which is not actually part of the billing system.

So how come it used to produce monthly bills when I was with them in 2017, submit a read at >28 days and a bill would be produced.  It seems they have overridden the option with the default so I suspect it was a choice.

matt_drummer

molerat said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I would say that they have not chosen to, they have discovered that it is just not possible with their billing system, which is very old, from what I have read online it seems to date from the mid to late nineties, it is based on very old technology, it is very inflexible and is largely based around the idea of a meter reader submitting a reading as they used to do when they visited houses on a periodic basis. At the moment there is a collection of systems that manage billing, more that lead to accounting, various data feeds and plug-ins that have to write in smart reads, as well as a corporate accounting system (probably something SAP?) and then there is the smart meter data side of thigs that is visible in the app and website, but which is not actually part of the billing system.

So how come it used to produce monthly bills when I was with them in 2017, submit a read at >28 days and a bill would be produced.

I don't think they have a problem with producing bills.

I think their problem is that their system then wants to collect the money based on the frequency of billing.

With a monthly bill they want to collect in a month.

With a six monthly bill they want to collect over six months.

You would have thought it was a simple fix but it probably isn't.