Can't get a state pension forecast and can't 'phone DWP...

Manxman_in_exile

Has anybody any advice on contacting the DWP re a state pension forecast?

I’ve already applied for a forecast through the govt gateway but DWP have told me they can’t give me a forecast because some (6?) of my 32 qualifying years (as at 2015) had been paid in the Isle of Man, and they can’t give me a forecast until they have the relevant details from the Isle of Man tax people.

Unfortunately the DWP letter is unclear as to whether they are taking the necessary action to collect this information or whether I need to do this myself.

I’ve tried calling them on 0800 7310175 and selecting the options for “if you have already received a pension forecast and have a query about it select option 1“, but it’s constantly engaged or cuts out.  I’ve tried several times daily over the last two weeks but got nowhere.  I also tried selecting the option for “if you want a new forecast choose option 2” but the people I get through to each time tell me I have to select option 1.

I’ll be 66 in January 2024 and I want to know if I need to (or can) buy any additional years before the extended deadline of 31 July 2023.  I retired from the NHS with a NHS pension several years ago.

Any suggestions as to how to get through to the right people or how to work out a state pension estimate myself?  (Apparently I’ll get one from the UK and another from the Isle of Man…)

Or any other ideas?

Thanks

(PS – I am in any case trying myself to get the relevant info from the Isle of Man as to how many years I have there.  At least you can get through to them on the ‘phone.)

[Edit:  I've just spoken to the Manx tax people and apparently they sent my NI record for the IoM to the DWP on 12th April.  So I'm not sure if I just need to wait for my statement from DWP or what now...]

Marcon

Manxman_in_exile said:

Has anybody any advice on contacting the DWP re a state pension forecast?

I’ve already applied for a forecast through the govt gateway but DWP have told me they can’t give me a forecast because some (6?) of my 32 qualifying years (as at 2015) had been paid in the Isle of Man, and they can’t give me a forecast until they have the relevant details from the Isle of Man tax people.

Unfortunately the DWP letter is unclear as to whether they are taking the necessary action to collect this information or whether I need to do this myself.

I’ve tried calling them on 0800 7310175 and selecting the options for “if you have already received a pension forecast and have a query about it select option 1“, but it’s constantly engaged or cuts out.  I’ve tried several times daily over the last two weeks but got nowhere.  I also tried selecting the option for “if you want a new forecast choose option 2” but the people I get through to each time tell me I have to select option 1.

I’ll be 66 in January 2024 and I want to know if I need to (or can) buy any additional years before the extended deadline of 31 July 2023.  I retired from the NHS with a NHS pension several years ago.

Any suggestions as to how to get through to the right people or how to work out a state pension estimate myself?  (Apparently I’ll get one from the UK and another from the Isle of Man…)

Or any other ideas?

Thanks

(PS – I am in any case trying myself to get the relevant info from the Isle of Man as to how many years I have there.  At least you can get through to them on the ‘phone.)

[Edit:  I've just spoken to the Manx tax people and apparently they sent my NI record for the IoM to the DWP on 12th April.  So I'm not sure if I just need to wait for my statement from DWP or what now...]

If the info was only sent from the Manx tax people on 12 April, I suspect it's a waiting game, particularly as there have been various bank holidays delaying things, not to mention an onslaught of enquiries!

Might be worth posting here: https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/ni. HMRC Admin seem to reply pretty quickly - probably more quickly than answering the phone!

xylophone

I’ll be 66 in January 2024 and I want to know if I need to (or can) buy any additional years before the extended deadline of 31 July 2023.  I retired from the NHS with a NHS pension several years ago.

Do you mean that you have made no NI contributions since 2015 at which time you had 32 qualifying years?

You were a member of the NHS Pension Scheme which was contracted out up to  5/4/16.

You are likely to have had a substantial "COD"/COPE.


Assuming 32 QY, at 6/4/16 your "starting amount" for NSP was the higher of

Old Rules

NIQY/30 (max) x £119.30 (Full Basic) + (Additional State Pension - "COD").

New Rules

{NIQY/35 (max) x £155.65 (Full NSP)} - COPE.

Your starting amount will have been at least £119.30.  Depending on your working history/salary, it may have been more but is  certain to have been under a full new state pension.

If you were a member of the NHS Scheme for much of your working life, then it is virtually certain that your strating amount was based on the Old Rules.

See p6

https://www.dpf.org.uk/explorer/files/TOPPING-UP-YOUR-STATE-PENSION-GUIDE.pdf

If so, then the years 16/17  up to 22/23 could be available for purchase to improve your SP up to (but not exceeding) full NSP.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-contributions-extending-the-voluntary-national-insurance-contributions-deadline/extending-the-voluntary-national-insurance-contributions-deadline#:~:text=To ensure customers are treated,NICs to 31 July 2023.

Manxman_in_exile

xylophone said:

I’ll be 66 in January 2024 and I want to know if I need to (or can) buy any additional years before the extended deadline of 31 July 2023.  I retired from the NHS with a NHS pension several years ago.

Do you mean that you have made no NI contributions since 2015 at which time you had 32 qualifying years?

You were a member of the NHS Pension Scheme which was contracted out up to  5/4/16....

[Rest edited for space]

Hi @xylophone -  thanks for your informative post which has raised more questions in my mind.  (Sigh)

First of all thank you for the link to the Royal London document.  It’s very helpful.  Can I take it that that document (particularly the flowcharts) accurately represents the current position?

Also you asked me a couple of questions.  I’ve tried to answer them and to anticipate any further questions in the numbered points below. 

Apologies for the length of this post but I thought it better to give too much info rather than too little.  Even if you don’t read it all I’d be very grateful for any further observations you have:

1. I will reach state pension age in January 2024.

2.  I last had a state pension statement dated 26 August 2015 based on my NI record up to the tax year 2014/15.  That forecast stated I had 32 qualifying years.  There have been no further years added to that.  It also gave me an estimated state pension of £120.30 per week.

3.  I also received details of my NI record dated 22 September 2015 which also confirmed that I had 32 qualifying years up to 5th April 2015.  It was also stated that “This includes 70 NICs paid or credited in the years up to 5th April 1975”.  I do not know if that is significant or not.

4.  At the time I received those two documents in 2015 I decided not to purchase any voluntary contributions that were on offer.

5.  I had joined the NHS superannuation scheme in January 1988 and took an early retirement/redundancy package leaving the NHS in May 2012.  I’ve not been in paid work since then.  Just a little unpaid voluntary work.

6.  In April this year I tried to get a pension statement online through the government gateway.  It told me it couldn’t give me a statement because some of my NICs had been paid in the Isle of Man – which is correct.

7.  I phoned the DWP and spoke to an agent who said he would raise a statement for me.  A couple of weeks later I received a letter from DWP Future Pension Service telling me that they couldn’t provide me with a statement immediately because of my NICs paid in the Isle of Man which would not be included in my UK pension statement.  They told me that once they had details of my NICs from the Isle of Man they would send me a statement of my UK pension.

9.  The Manx tax people confirmed to me earlier today that they had sent my NI record to the DWP on 12th April.  I then managed to get through to the DWP and they have today raised a further request for a pension statement on my behalf. 

10.  The Isle of Man has also confirmed to me that I have 6 qualifying NI years with them.  The first two years are what they have described to me as “starting credit years”(?).  They then have two tax years when I worked in the Isle of Man (80/81 and 81/82) but they also have my first two years of paid work in the UK (85/86 and 86/87).  Apparently that treatment was correct at that time in respect of the first two years of employment in the UK of someone with a Manx NI number.  Or at least that is what they have told me.

11.  I assume – but do not know – that the 6 years credited to me in the Isle of Man were included in the 32 qualifying years referred to in point “2” above in 2015, and that therefore I only currently have 26 qualifying years in the UK.

12.  When the UK introduced its new pension scheme in 2016 the Isle of Man did not follow suit.  I am being told that when I reach state pension age in January 2024 I will need to apply for two separate pensions – one from the UK and the other from the Isle of Man.

13.  For completeness I will add that I have some gaps in my early years of NICs because of two degrees and a couple of periods of unemployment.

Before I started to look into this in April this year I was not particularly concerned about my state pension.  But that was before I realised that my NICs in the Isle of Man would not be included in my UK pension.  I’m now worried that my UK state pension will suffer.

 

Thanks for reading!

Manxman_in_exile

Marcon said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Has anybody any advice on contacting the DWP re a state pension forecast?

I’ve already applied for a forecast through the govt gateway but DWP have told me they can’t give me a forecast because some (6?) of my 32 qualifying years (as at 2015) had been paid in the Isle of Man, and they can’t give me a forecast until they have the relevant details from the Isle of Man tax people.

Unfortunately the DWP letter is unclear as to whether they are taking the necessary action to collect this information or whether I need to do this myself.

I’ve tried calling them on 0800 7310175 and selecting the options for “if you have already received a pension forecast and have a query about it select option 1“, but it’s constantly engaged or cuts out.  I’ve tried several times daily over the last two weeks but got nowhere.  I also tried selecting the option for “if you want a new forecast choose option 2” but the people I get through to each time tell me I have to select option 1.

I’ll be 66 in January 2024 and I want to know if I need to (or can) buy any additional years before the extended deadline of 31 July 2023.  I retired from the NHS with a NHS pension several years ago.

Any suggestions as to how to get through to the right people or how to work out a state pension estimate myself?  (Apparently I’ll get one from the UK and another from the Isle of Man…)

Or any other ideas?

Thanks

(PS – I am in any case trying myself to get the relevant info from the Isle of Man as to how many years I have there.  At least you can get through to them on the ‘phone.)

[Edit:  I've just spoken to the Manx tax people and apparently they sent my NI record for the IoM to the DWP on 12th April.  So I'm not sure if I just need to wait for my statement from DWP or what now...]

If the info was only sent from the Manx tax people on 12 April, I suspect it's a waiting game, particularly as there have been various bank holidays delaying things, not to mention an onslaught of enquiries!

Might be worth posting here: https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/ni. HMRC Admin seem to reply pretty quickly - probably more quickly than answering the phone!

@Marcon - thanks for that.

I got through to DWP today after I spoke to the Manx tax people who confirmed they'd passed my NI record onto DWP in mid april.  Unfortunately DWP don't seem to have done anything yet but have raised a new statement today.

I'll try that link you've given as well.

thanks

xylophone

You started working for the NHS in 1988 and retired from the service in 2012 - you have not been in paid employment since.

That's at least 24 years "contracted out" which indicates a substantial "COD"/ COPE.

With regard to the "pre 1975 credits" and youth credits see

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/national-insurance-manual/nim41210

Until 5 April 2010, to protect the NI records of students who stayed in full time education for tax years commencing on or after 6 April 1975, regulation 4 allowed a customer to be credited with Class 3 NICs, which count for State Pension and, up until 6 April 2017, bereavement benefits.

These starting credits could be awarded for the full three tax years containing their 16th, 17th and 18th birthdays, whether or not the young person was in full time education, and were recorded on the NPS account.

A person was also entitled to Class 3 credits for the 1974-75 tax year if, on 6 April 1975, they:

• had reached the age of 16 years, and
• were in Great Britain or Northern Ireland, but

were not in insurable employment.

You mention 6 years working on the Isle of Man.

https://www.gov.im/categories/benefits-and-financial-support/pensions/manx-state-pension/#accordion

https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/how-to-claim#:~:text=If you're eligible for,your Isle of Man pension.

You were 16 in  January 1974 and 30 in 1988.

During that period you worked on the Isle of Man for six years.

The other eight years are degree/period of unemployment years?

With regard to the RL booklet, the flow chart system works but the amounts for NSP change in subsequent years

Here is the 2019/20 edition (the last available).

https://www.royallondon.com/siteassets/site-docs/media-centre/good-with-your-money-guides/gwymg-1b-topping-up-state-pension-2019-interactive.pdf

And note the link in my previous re NI deadlines.

Manxman_in_exile

@xylophone - thankyou for that.  I'll respond further this evening.

Manxman_in_exile

Hi @xylophone

I actually have around 25 years contracted out as I transferred in several months of earlier employment from a local authority.  I may also have bought some added years (or part years) under the NHS 1995 scheme.  I can check if it’s important.

I presume COD/COPE is some reference to contracted out and that it means that my state pension will be reduced?  (You’ll have to treat me as if I know absolutely nothing I’m afraid.  I used to understand what SERPS was and what a contracted out scheme was but I think my understanding has been left behind somewhat).

 

“You mention 6 years working on the Isle of Man.”   Not quite.  Apparently they have 6 years of contributions recorded against me there.  The first two years must be qualifying years or the “youth credits” (I don’t really know) and the second two years represent two years that I actually did work there - 1980/81 and 1980/82.

The last two years are the first two years of my employment in the UK apparently - 1985/86 and 1986/87.  How that works I don’t understand, but the Isle of Man pensions people have told me that that treatment was correct at that time,  Will those two years contribute to my Manx pension (where they are recorded) or to my UK pension (where they were worked)?  I haven’t a clue.

 

“You were 16 in  January 1974 and 30 in 1988.”   Correct

“During that period you worked on the Isle of Man for six years.”   See above.  Two of those years were worked in the UK but recorded in the Isle of Man.

 

“The other eight years are degree/period of unemployment years?”    Ok… bit complicated… I’m not sure of precise dates, but…

***[NB - the letter from HMRC dated 22 September 2015 includes a printed schedule of my NI contributions by tax year from 1975/76 to 2012/13 which was the last year I paid NI.  Would that info make it simpler?]***

Full time education in school up to Summer 1976.

Attended university full time 1976-79 and from Sept 1979 to February 1980ish

Worked full time on Isle of Man February 1980ish to around May 1982

Attended university full time September 1982 to around September 1983

Unemployed for around two(?) years

Worked 1986 and part of 1987?

Around 6 months unemployed?

Started work in NHS January 1988 until leaving in May 2012.

 

Obviously what is concerning me now is I’d like to know if I should be buying additional years or making some kind of voluntary contributions, but DWP don’t appear to be able to tell me where I currently stand.  They don’t even seem to want to confirm that the information given to me in 2015 (which included my Isle of Man contributions) still means anything.  So I really don’t know where I stand state pension wise.

I had assumed that in these computerised days getting this information would be (a) speedy and (b) easy.  Ironically my very first job in the NHS was sending paper superannuation records to the NHS Superannuation Branch in Blackpool for staff nearing retirement!

The news about the way my IoM contributions are being treated also came as a big surprise.  Especially when the Isle of Man initially told me they could find no NI records for me at all.  And I’d worked for the Manx Treasury…

I'm grateful for any help or pointers you can give.  The questions you have posed have helped me get my head round the information I do have.

Thanks again

xylophone

With regard to "COD"/COPE ("Rebate Derived Amount") see


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-state-pension-if-youve-been-contracted-out-of-additional-state-pension/the-new-state-pension-transition-and-contracting-out-fact-sheet

The COPE was used once only as explained below.

As you know, the new state pension was introduced on 6/4/16.

At that point, a "starting (foundation) amount"  of NSP was calculated for those under SPA.

It was the higher of the individual's accrued entitlement  under

Old Rules

NI Qualifying Years/30 (max) x £119.30 (Full Basic) + (Additional State Pension - "COD").

New Rules

{NIQY/35 (max) x £155.65 (Full NSP)} - Contracted Out Pension Equivalent.

In your case, with at least 25 years in LGPS/ NHSPS, your COPE will be fairly hefty so that your "starting amount" will have been given by the old rules.


With regard to the statement you were given in 2015, (pre 6/5/2016) the 32 QY seems quite logical given  the information here.


https://www.gov.im/categories/tax-vat-and-your-money/income-tax-and-national-insurance/national-insurance-contributions/reciprocal-agreement-with-the-uk/

With regard to the "dual claim", I am wondering whether the fact that you have fewer than ten "Manx years" means that you get no Manx pension but get the UK pension based on 32 QY.

https://www.gov.im/categories/benefits-and-financial-support/pensions/manx-state-pension/#accordion

Let's suppose that you had 32 QY at 6/4/16 and that your "starting amount"  based on UK system was around £125.

Voluntary contributions for years 16/17 to 22/23 would bring you up to full NSP.

But until you have confirmation of your exact position  from DWP, you cannot be sure of how much you need to pay /where you need to pay it?

Manxman_in_exile

Thanks @xylophone.  I'll digest the detail over the weekend.

xylophone said:

With regard to the "dual claim", I am wondering whether the fact that you have fewer than ten "Manx years" means that you get no Manx pension but get the UK pension based on 32 QY.

https://www.gov.im/categories/benefits-and-financial-support/pensions/manx-state-pension/#accordion

I have no idea.  As I posted yesterday it came as a complete surprise to me that my Manx contributions were now being treated separately as previously they had been included in my UK pension statement from 2015.

If I'm not eligible for a Manx pension because I have fewer than ten years contributions I ceratinly hope the Manx years can be transferred over to my UK pension.  I'll call the Manx pensions people on Monday and try to find out what should happen.  They've been quite helpful so far but I don't know how much experience of this sort of situation they have.  I'd have thought it potentially affected a lot of people.

xylophone said:

Let's suppose that you had 32 QY at 6/4/16 and that your "starting amount"  based on UK system was around £125.

Voluntary contributions for years 16/17 to 22/23 would bring you up to full NSP.

But until you have confirmation of your exact position  from DWP, you cannot be sure of how much you need to pay /where you need to pay it?

That's it in a nutshell! 

So I'm waiting for a definitive UK pension statement (which I've been warned will take longer than usual to produce because of the Manx complication), then I need to decide whether to buy extra years, and then I need to get through to DWP to buy them.  (Or at least I presume that is the process).

I'm not sure what else - if anything - I can do to speed the process up.  I will try posting this weekend on the HMRC(?) forum that @Marcon linked to and see if that produces any ideas.

One question -  assuming it is correct that I had 32 qualy. years in 2015 and that I still have them (depending on the IoM situation) does that mean I need to buy 3 years to bring it up to 35 for a max pension, or do I need more than that?  I note you mention buying 7 years.  2016/17 to 2022/23 if I've understood correctly.

Thanks again for your help.  It's allowing me to make more sense of it than I could on my own.

xylophone

 I note you mention buying 7 years.  2016/17 to 2022/23 if I've understood correctly.

As far as we can see at the moment, you had 32 QY at 6/4/16.

Your last QY was 12/13 and you have paid no contributions since then.

You would have had a substantial COPE having been contracted out into  LGPS/NHSPS for around 25 years.

Your starting amount calculated as previously explained would almost certainly have been based on the old rules.

Let's suppose it was  £125.65 so thirty pounds short of a new state pension.

Seven more QY would have been required to bring you up to full NSP (30+ 4.44).

You need your state pension forecast and COPE to establish your exact position.