Advice on giving notice to tenant

jonnypb

There is an Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement that had a fixed term for 12 months. That has now expired and it has been on a monthly rolling basis. This has also been a private rental agreement and not through a letting agent.

We now want to sell the house and gave the tenant written notice 4 weeks ago. We’ve been quite reasonable as they haven’t paid the rent for 2 months.

Apparently they’ve had advice from the council and from what the tenant has said is that the council have said that there’s not a lot that we can do to get them to move out unless we go down the court route.

Is this correct? We’re not evicting them during the fixed 12 month tenancy agreement and breaking that as that has expired now. We’ve even said to them if they go in the next few weeks we will forget about the rent arrears that they owe. At first they said they’d go, but after speaking to the council they’ve changed their tune. They’ve said the council will give them a house, but we have to serve them with various different notices now and it could be a while before a house is available for them.

Some advice will be greatly appreciated as we’ve never experienced this in the last 15 years of renting!

Thank you

Annisele

Google "council gatekeeping" and you'll find oodles of information about this.

A tenancy can only be ended by a tenant or a court - not by a landlord serving notice. So if your tenants leave before a court chucks them out, the council might take the view that your tenants chose to make themselves homeless. (And the council would have something of a point - not a good point mind, but the tenants would have moved out earlier than they legally needed to do so.) If the tenant wants help from the council, then the easiest way to do that is to jump through the council's hoops - and that usually means staying put until a court orders otherwise.

That means if you want them out, then you as the landlord have to either get to a position where a court will order them out (i.e. serve all the correct things at the right time), or make it worth the tenants' while to leave earlier. The latter might mean offering them money to go, but I see you've tried that (in the sense of offering to forgive rent arrears) and that didn't work.

This isn't much of a bright side, but if their arrears stay above a certain level that does make it easier for you to get possession via the courts.

propertyrental

"gave the tenant written notice 4 weeks ago. "

In what form?

The only legal way to give notice is with either a S21 Notice (2 months followed by application to court for possession), or a S8 Notice using one of 17 'grounds' eg G8 rent arrears.

Of course, you can agree with the tenant to end the tenancy at any time - by mutual consent. But it sounds like the tenant is unlikely to agree!

Have you read the stickie?

Post 4: Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

jonnypb

Thank you for the information. Will have a read up on it and try to see if there can be a mutual agreement with the tenant by forgetting about the rent arrears, which will be 3 months worth in a couple of weeks (£1500). 

Like I say, in the past when tenants have come and gone, or previous houses have been sold, there's never been an issue and either the tenants have given us notice that they're leaving at the end of the agreement, or there has always been mutual agreement when a house has been sold in the past and the tenant has moved out without any issues, so this is all new ground when a tenant stops paying rent and won't move out, although they were going to move out before they spoke to the council!!

If they refuse and a S21 or S8 notice is issued, can rent arrears be claimed back via the courts?  Or is the money that is owed on the rent written off and it's the LL who has to absorb the cost of the lost rent?

jonnypb

Am I right in saying that if they haven't paid their rent for 3 months then a section 8 form can be issued under ground 8 (serious rent arrears) and only a 2 week notice is required?

Ground 8 – Serious rent arrears

Two weeks' notice of proceedings required. The court does not have the power to waive the requirement for the notice to be served.[15]

At the time of the notice and at the time of the hearing, at least:

• two-months' rent is owed if paying monthly

Thanks

_Penny_Dreadful

jonnypb said:

There is an Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement that had a fixed term for 12 months. That has now expired and it has been on a monthly rolling basis. This has also been a private rental agreement and not through a letting agent.

We now want to sell the house and gave the tenant written notice 4 weeks ago. We’ve been quite reasonable as they haven’t paid the rent for 2 months.

Apparently they’ve had advice from the council and from what the tenant has said is that the council have said that there’s not a lot that we can do to get them to move out unless we go down the court route.

Is this correct? We’re not evicting them during the fixed 12 month tenancy agreement and breaking that as that has expired now. We’ve even said to them if they go in the next few weeks we will forget about the rent arrears that they owe. At first they said they’d go, but after speaking to the council they’ve changed their tune. They’ve said the council will give them a house, but we have to serve them with various different notices now and it could be a while before a house is available for them.

Some advice will be greatly appreciated as we’ve never experienced this in the last 15 years of renting!

Thank you

jonnypb said:

Thank you for the information. Will have a read up on it and try to see if there can be a mutual agreement with the tenant by forgetting about the rent arrears, which will be 3 months worth in a couple of weeks (£1500). 

Like I say, in the past when tenants have come and gone, or previous houses have been sold, there's never been an issue and either the tenants have given us notice that they're leaving at the end of the agreement, or there has always been mutual agreement when a house has been sold in the past and the tenant has moved out without any issues, so this is all new ground when a tenant stops paying rent and won't move out, although they were going to move out before they spoke to the council!!

If they refuse and a S21 or S8 notice is issued, can rent arrears be claimed back via the courts?  Or is the money that is owed on the rent written off and it's the LL who has to absorb the cost of the lost rent?

If you've been landlords for 15 years and don't know how the eviction process in England works then you have been extremely lucky that this is the first time a tenant is making you do it properly.

As the tenant owes more than 2 months rent you can take a belt and braces approach by issuing both a Section 21 and a Section 8 using ground 8.  Neither notice actually ends the tenancy as that can only be done by the tenant or a court.  The notice is just notice that you might go to court to get a possession order.  The Section 21 requires you to give the tenant 2 months notice and the Section 8 requires 2 weeks notice when used with ground 8.

When using ground 8 you can include the arrears in your claim and with the Section 21 you'd need to file a Money Claim Online, ideally once the tenant is out so you know exactly how much money is owed.

There are several things that can invalidate a Section 21 notice so check you can serve valid notice before serving it.  You can use the flow chart below to check.

https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/

jonnypb

_Penny_Dreadful said:

jonnypb said:

There is an Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement that had a fixed term for 12 months. That has now expired and it has been on a monthly rolling basis. This has also been a private rental agreement and not through a letting agent.

We now want to sell the house and gave the tenant written notice 4 weeks ago. We’ve been quite reasonable as they haven’t paid the rent for 2 months.

Apparently they’ve had advice from the council and from what the tenant has said is that the council have said that there’s not a lot that we can do to get them to move out unless we go down the court route.

Is this correct? We’re not evicting them during the fixed 12 month tenancy agreement and breaking that as that has expired now. We’ve even said to them if they go in the next few weeks we will forget about the rent arrears that they owe. At first they said they’d go, but after speaking to the council they’ve changed their tune. They’ve said the council will give them a house, but we have to serve them with various different notices now and it could be a while before a house is available for them.

Some advice will be greatly appreciated as we’ve never experienced this in the last 15 years of renting!

Thank you

jonnypb said:

Thank you for the information. Will have a read up on it and try to see if there can be a mutual agreement with the tenant by forgetting about the rent arrears, which will be 3 months worth in a couple of weeks (£1500). 

Like I say, in the past when tenants have come and gone, or previous houses have been sold, there's never been an issue and either the tenants have given us notice that they're leaving at the end of the agreement, or there has always been mutual agreement when a house has been sold in the past and the tenant has moved out without any issues, so this is all new ground when a tenant stops paying rent and won't move out, although they were going to move out before they spoke to the council!!

If they refuse and a S21 or S8 notice is issued, can rent arrears be claimed back via the courts?  Or is the money that is owed on the rent written off and it's the LL who has to absorb the cost of the lost rent?

If you've been landlords for 15 years and don't know how the eviction process in England works then you have been extremely lucky that this is the first time a tenant is making you do it properly.

As the tenant owes more than 2 months rent you can take a belt and braces approach by issuing both a Section 21 and a Section 8 using ground 8.  Neither notice actually ends the tenancy as that can only be done by the tenant or a court.  The notice is just notice that you might go to court to get a possession order.  The Section 21 requires you to give the tenant 2 months notice and the Section 8 requires 2 weeks notice when used with ground 8.

When using ground 8 you can include the arrears in your claim and with the Section 21 you'd need to file a Money Claim Online, ideally once the tenant is out so you know exactly how much money is owed.

There are several things that can invalidate a Section 21 notice so check you can serve valid notice before serving it.  You can use the flow chart below to check.

https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/

Yes extremely lucky by always having good tenants and has always been mutual understandings.  Sods law this happens when the house is going up for sale as we no longer want to rent the house out anymore!

Out of curiosity what would the benefit be in issuing both a S8 and S21?  The S8 can be issued and only requires 2 weeks notice, whereas the S21 requires 2 months notice.  At the point now where we'd just like them gone so surely just doing the S8 means we only have to wait 2 weeks before going to court for a possession order, rather than wait 2 months?

_Penny_Dreadful

jonnypb said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

jonnypb said:

There is an Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement that had a fixed term for 12 months. That has now expired and it has been on a monthly rolling basis. This has also been a private rental agreement and not through a letting agent.

We now want to sell the house and gave the tenant written notice 4 weeks ago. We’ve been quite reasonable as they haven’t paid the rent for 2 months.

Apparently they’ve had advice from the council and from what the tenant has said is that the council have said that there’s not a lot that we can do to get them to move out unless we go down the court route.

Is this correct? We’re not evicting them during the fixed 12 month tenancy agreement and breaking that as that has expired now. We’ve even said to them if they go in the next few weeks we will forget about the rent arrears that they owe. At first they said they’d go, but after speaking to the council they’ve changed their tune. They’ve said the council will give them a house, but we have to serve them with various different notices now and it could be a while before a house is available for them.

Some advice will be greatly appreciated as we’ve never experienced this in the last 15 years of renting!

Thank you

jonnypb said:

Thank you for the information. Will have a read up on it and try to see if there can be a mutual agreement with the tenant by forgetting about the rent arrears, which will be 3 months worth in a couple of weeks (£1500). 

Like I say, in the past when tenants have come and gone, or previous houses have been sold, there's never been an issue and either the tenants have given us notice that they're leaving at the end of the agreement, or there has always been mutual agreement when a house has been sold in the past and the tenant has moved out without any issues, so this is all new ground when a tenant stops paying rent and won't move out, although they were going to move out before they spoke to the council!!

If they refuse and a S21 or S8 notice is issued, can rent arrears be claimed back via the courts?  Or is the money that is owed on the rent written off and it's the LL who has to absorb the cost of the lost rent?

If you've been landlords for 15 years and don't know how the eviction process in England works then you have been extremely lucky that this is the first time a tenant is making you do it properly.

As the tenant owes more than 2 months rent you can take a belt and braces approach by issuing both a Section 21 and a Section 8 using ground 8.  Neither notice actually ends the tenancy as that can only be done by the tenant or a court.  The notice is just notice that you might go to court to get a possession order.  The Section 21 requires you to give the tenant 2 months notice and the Section 8 requires 2 weeks notice when used with ground 8.

When using ground 8 you can include the arrears in your claim and with the Section 21 you'd need to file a Money Claim Online, ideally once the tenant is out so you know exactly how much money is owed.

There are several things that can invalidate a Section 21 notice so check you can serve valid notice before serving it.  You can use the flow chart below to check.

https://nearlylegal.co.uk/section-21-flowchart/

Yes extremely lucky by always having good tenants and has always been mutual understandings.  Sods law this happens when the house is going up for sale as we no longer want to rent the house out anymore!

Out of curiosity what would the benefit be in issuing both a S8 and S21?  The S8 can be issued and only requires 2 weeks notice, whereas the S21 requires 2 months notice.  At the point now where we'd just like them gone so surely just doing the S8 means we only have to wait 2 weeks before going to court for a possession order, rather than wait 2 months?

The tenant could reduce the arrears to under 2 months worth by the court date either by paying some rent and/or by claiming disrepair. Then it would fail but you’d have the section 21 as backup. 

tealady

Also if they dont pay the rent arrears would the Council consider the tenants have made themselves deliberately homeless? Any one know.
If that is correct it might encourage the tenants to pay up.

Zoe02

jonnypb said:

There is an Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement that had a fixed term for 12 months. That has now expired and it has been on a monthly rolling basis. This has also been a private rental agreement and not through a letting agent.

We now want to sell the house and gave the tenant written notice 4 weeks ago. We’ve been quite reasonable as they haven’t paid the rent for 2 months.

Apparently they’ve had advice from the council and from what the tenant has said is that the council have said that there’s not a lot that we can do to get them to move out unless we go down the court route.

Is this correct? We’re not evicting them during the fixed 12 month tenancy agreement and breaking that as that has expired now. We’ve even said to them if they go in the next few weeks we will forget about the rent arrears that they owe. At first they said they’d go, but after speaking to the council they’ve changed their tune. They’ve said the council will give them a house, but we have to serve them with various different notices now and it could be a while before a house is available for them.

Some advice will be greatly appreciated as we’ve never experienced this in the last 15 years of renting!

Thank you

I am experiencing this currently. 

12 months AST ended November 2022

Started s21 in January.

possession granted April 2023 but does not end there now waiting for bailiffs and there is months wait and the council will not help until tenant homeless.