Eco7 vs Comfortplus Control Energy

Gerry1

There are three basic issues to consider.

1. What are the 'live' times of your NSH circuit?  If you have 10 hours now and cut it down to 7 it may get chilly in the evenings.  Do you have to run them flat out when there's a cold snap?  If so, you may find they're too small to work well on E7.  You could try reducing the charge period by switching them off for 3 hours to get an idea of how well they would cope on E7.  If you switch to E7 it's unlikely that you could go back to your existing tariff.

2. As previously suggested, do the sums to see whether E7 would be cheaper if you used the same kWh amount on the low rate.  Bear in mind that the E7 low rates vary a lot between suppliers, unlike single rate which virtually the same on everyone's SVT.

3. Is it worth upgrading to HHR NSHs such as Quantum? They don't waste so much heat when it's not wanted but WFH means the savings won't be quite as much, perhaps 10% rather than 20%.  But you'll have to upgrade the existing NSHs anyway if they are too small for E7.

* If you keep the existing NSHs, make sure the smart meter has a Boost button that can be used to liven up the E7 switched circuits for an hour during the day.   You can then top up the NSHs if they're going flat out but it still gets chilly in the late afternoon / evening, but of course this boost will be at the expensive day rate.

Frosting3953

Gerry1 said:

There are three basic issues to consider.

1. What are the 'live' times of your NSH circuit?  If you have 10 hours now and cut it down to 7 it may get chilly in the evenings.  Do you have to run them flat out when there's a cold snap?  If so, you may find they're too small to work well on E7.  You could try reducing the charge period by switching them off for 3 hours to get an idea of how well they would cope on E7.  If you switch to E7 it's unlikely that you could go back to your existing tariff.

2. As previously suggested, do the sums to see whether E7 would be cheaper if you used the same kWh amount on the low rate.  Bear in mind that the E7 low rates vary a lot between suppliers, unlike single rate which virtually the same on everyone's SVT.

3. Is it worth upgrading to HHR NSHs such as Quantum? They don't waste so much heat when it's not wanted but WFH means the savings won't be quite as much, perhaps 10% rather than 20%.  But you'll have to upgrade the existing NSHs anyway if they are too small for E7.

* If you keep the existing NSHs, make sure the smart meter has a Boost button that can be used to liven up the E7 switched circuits for an hour during the day.   You can then top up the NSHs if they're going flat out but it still gets chilly in the late afternoon / evening, but of course this boost will be at the expensive day rate.

I'm not on eco7 and probably won't be switching to it due to it seems like most of my appliances do not function like they are in eco7.

Right now I'm on standard tariff I don't believe I'm on 10 since that would be I would be using that tariff no?

Apologies completely out of my depth.

[Deleted User]

Hi,

Frosting3953 said:

Apologies completely out of my depth.

ok, so what does your bill say?

Frosting3953

frugalmacdugal said:

Frosting3953 said:

Apologies completely out of my depth.

ok, so what does your bill say?

For tariff? It's says flexible octopus

sewingqueen

This sounds like a multi mpan (supply number) meter, would be very surprised if it's smart as they are a old style meter. Do you have two supply numbers on your bill? 

It used to be the case that customers with 2 mpans could not change supplier and would have to stay with the meter owner which in your case would be ScottishPower.

It is now possible to change suppliers but if you go to someone other than SP they will not be able to give you a comfort plus control tariff, they can either give you a E7 tariff or bill you all as one price. I belive the offering of E7 is discretionary. This means your tariff and meter type will not match.

This is how comfort plus controls operates and still operates even though you are not with SP. 

Heating rate applies to all electricity supplied by the heating meter and is made available on three circuits which operate as follows:
a) The controlled circuit supplies storage space heating and is energised for periods having an aggregate daily duration between 0 and 14 hours chosen by ScottishPower on the basis of forecast weather conditions. The intention is that the customer should be able to leave all storage heaters switched on with their charge controllers set to maximum and obtain a substantially constant daily average indoor temperature in each heated room throughout the year. For this temperature to provide acceptable comfort conditions it is essential that the heating system is correctly sized.
b) The storage water heating circuit supplies storage water heating and is energised for periods formally defined as being at ScottishPower's discretion totalling 4.5 hours per day, but in practice would normally be 04:00 to 08:30 Local Time.
c) The direct space and water heating circuit supplies direct acting space and water heating and is energised 24 hours per day.


 The "Other" rate applies to electricity used for all other purposes. This will include any space or water heating not supplied by the appropriate heating circuit

So you could have up to 14 hours to operate your NSH depending on the outside temperature but if Octopus or other suppliers are not giving you a "night rate/ cheaper rate" then you will not see the benefit of this.

If you change your meter to E7 you will be limited to 7 hours overnight but at least will get the discounted night rate (not sure if rewiring of your circuits would be needed for storage heaters to continue working) and as others have mentioned they may run out of heat if not adequately sized.

Compare your yearly usage on each rate to see what kind of split you have between heat and other.

Frosting3953

sewingqueen said:

This sounds like a multi mpan (supply number) meter, would be very surprised if it's smart as they are a old style meter. Do you have two supply numbers on your bill? 

It used to be the case that customers with 2 mpans could not change supplier and would have to stay with the meter owner which in your case would be ScottishPower.

It is now possible to change suppliers but if you go to someone other than SP they will not be able to give you a comfort plus control tariff, they can either give you a E7 tariff or bill you all as one price. I belive the offering of E7 is discretionary. This means your tariff and meter type will not match.

This is how comfort plus controls operates and still operates even though you are not with SP. 

Heating rate applies to all electricity supplied by the heating meter and is made available on three circuits which operate as follows:
a) The controlled circuit supplies storage space heating and is energised for periods having an aggregate daily duration between 0 and 14 hours chosen by ScottishPower on the basis of forecast weather conditions. The intention is that the customer should be able to leave all storage heaters switched on with their charge controllers set to maximum and obtain a substantially constant daily average indoor temperature in each heated room throughout the year. For this temperature to provide acceptable comfort conditions it is essential that the heating system is correctly sized.
b) The storage water heating circuit supplies storage water heating and is energised for periods formally defined as being at ScottishPower's discretion totalling 4.5 hours per day, but in practice would normally be 04:00 to 08:30 Local Time.
c) The direct space and water heating circuit supplies direct acting space and water heating and is energised 24 hours per day.


 The "Other" rate applies to electricity used for all other purposes. This will include any space or water heating not supplied by the appropriate heating circuit

So you could have up to 14 hours to operate your NSH depending on the outside temperature but if Octopus or other suppliers are not giving you a "night rate/ cheaper rate" then you will not see the benefit of this.

If you change your meter to E7 you will be limited to 7 hours overnight but at least will get the discounted night rate (not sure if rewiring of your circuits would be needed for storage heaters to continue working) and as others have mentioned they may run out of heat if not adequately sized.

Compare your yearly usage on each rate to see what kind of split you have between heat and other.

You are correct I pjoned multiple people and got some insight. There are two meters and it fucntions like a eco10,

I have to meters on bills etc. And paying standard tariff.

I'm wondering since Scottish power is the only company that seemed to as some point offer eco10, would it be wise to switch a smart meter that can support both standard tariff and eco 7.

And if I was to do that would I lose any functionality of my heating as it currently works.

Thank you for this, much appreciated.

sewingqueen

Very difficult to answer that with any certainty as too many unknowns.

you will currently have a timer switch either inbuilt into meter or as a separate box. Search for images of timer switches if you are unsure. It is this switch that controls when the heating comes on. This would be removed if you have a E7 smart meter installed and the hours of operation limited to 7 hours generally midnight to 7am.

Earlier posters have explained how to check your heaters to see how long the heat will last for. You could find that on E7 your heaters are not adequately sized and run out of heat too quickly.

You would need your own electrician to check your circuits/wiring to see if any changes would be needed.

Ask octopus to provide E7 prices so you can roughly calculate how much this would cost based on your usage last year. It won't be an exact science but at least give you some understanding.

Generally on E7 the night time is cheaper but then the day is more expensive than what you pay for on standard, so if your day usage is high it can wipe out any potential savings on the night rate.

Also you should note that E7 is sometimes known as white meter 1 in Scotland, save any confusion.

If it is a comfort plus control meter you can look up the current standard variable prices by searching "scottish power tariff look up" will take you to a page on thier website, fill in your post code etc and click View tariffs

Be_Happy

To clarify points about Comfortplus above.   I've been on Comfortplus in its 2 versions Comfortplus Control and Comfortplus White Meter in various parts of Scotland since it first came out.   I'm on Comfortplus Control just now.

The difference is that Comfortplus Control has 2 meters and each one has 1 rate,  Comfortplus White Meter has 2 meters but one has 2 rates day/night and the other has 1 rate.

Sticking to Comfortplus Control just now, it works as shown above with one important extra.   One meter controls all space and water heating with storage heaters and water heater run on radio timer controlled by SP.   But this meter also operates all other space or water heating connected to same circuit throughout the house for 24 hours eg I have wall heaters in kitchen and bathroom, coal effect fire in living room, combination storage heater with convection boost and boost switch on water heater, all of which are on the control circuit and can be used at any time of day on the cheap rate.  These power sockets are fixed ie not plug in.   If it's cold later in the day, I can use the combination storage heater boost or the electric fire to add heat, still at the cheap rate.

When we first had the system, it was fitted at that time by SP own engineers.   They asked what we wanted on the control circuit and offered things like the electric shower and the washing machine (must be cold fill only), so these were connected to control circuit and operated on cheap rate.

Problem I'm seeing now with others is that they've moved the position of storage heaters and they're no longer on control circuit..
The other meter as shown above operates everything else.

I'm on a 2 year fix not ending until February 2024 and pay SC 26.59, Control 18.57 and Standard 26.59 (all incl VAT) so have been well protected during these increases.

Scot_39

This is a bit of a long post so

1) Your Historic set-up (based on meter fitter comments)

See this SP doc for general operationof some of their tariffs

https://web-content.scottishpower.co.uk/files/pdf/tariffs/2017/Supply_Area.pdf

Assuming you are on Comfortpus Control - as the bottom of page 4 - then there is no simple direct conversion.

As as per this discription - that means your flat / house potentially has

Other tariff rate

1 normal circuit - for normal ring main sockets / lights / oven / cooker etc

Thecomfort plus - 3 potential seperate circuits

1 storage heating circuit - upto 14 hrs per day (*14 hrs - set by SP - remotely/radio?)

1 immersion heating circuit - upto 4.5 hrs per day

1 direct acting heat / hot water circuit - permanently live at socket (**).

You may not have all 3 of these - looking at your consumer units (fuse boxes in old speak) - might give you a clue - possibilities for (**) I suspect include towel rails or fan heaters in bathroom / kitchen etc - any secondary manual boost element on hot water tank (but think you said above you only have 1 element though).

I have no idea what tariff EOn were or were not applying - before price doubled - it may have been the original legacy (they only did Heatwise here - due to taking over from the orginators of Heatiwse - the old EMEB). Or may have been say E7 - do you have any bills from the time still ?

And besides which the tariff - may not have exactly matched the metering set-up.  I know others who got suppliers to bill old E10 meters on E7 rates etc - but allowed to keep 10hrs off peak (until meter change required).

2) My experience of leaving a complex metering system

Just as an example of what EOn did to migrate me off of an old legacy scheme - with new meter.

I had heatwise radio control - 1 switched 1 normal - so 2 meter / 2 MPAN / 2SC system from EOn

I had 1 normal circuit  - on meter 1 - charged at day rate

2nd meter - fed 1 storage heating circuit - charged at heatwise rate

2nd meter - fed 1 hot water circuit - charged at heatwise rate off-peak, boost rate if used button peak

(The hot water circuit had a manual boost button that operated via meter - rather than a second element - if ran out of hot water.)

When migrated to E10  (E7 can be identical - apart from the times the load switched circuit active)

1 had only one ACLS meter - originally digital - now Smart

1 normal cicuit

1 E10 ACLS (time switched circuit) - feeding both HW and NSH circuits - they were connected together in the meter cabinet by the meter fitter (water boost no longer possible).

The peak and off-peak rates are applied to both circuits - purely based on time. 

Essentially the seperate meter ACLS circuits still exist purely to avoid the need to fit matched timer controls on the NSH / HW immersion devices.

E10 is very much a legacy.  It gives 10 hrs a day - timing regional.

E10 can mix I find quite well with old - some of them more heat leaky than others - but for you 10 yrs old really isn't that old - NSH wise.  So perhaps a reason to be a bit concerned about abandoning 14 hrs of heat - worst case you might need upgrades (but remember comfort heating was sometimes linked to the old - who generally run much higher room temps - requiring more energy to maintain - than lower temps most younger adults totlerate)

3) Future Choices -  e.g. E7 vs SR

E7 gives 7hrs off peak per day - overnight.

It for some tends to produce a more distorted temperature profile in room with old NSH (higher overnight charge to last whole day - so leaks more heat in early AM - and loses heat by evening / night - more of a pain if out all day to get no benefit). 

7 hrs is probably more than enough for most NSH installs and HW

(My E10 might be active for 10hrs a day - but my HW thermostat turns immersion on for 1hr max a day typically and my NSH thermostats - maybe 3 - possibly 5hrs max in sub zero nights)

But if you did find the old heaters were a problem - HHR panels might solve the problem (large ones not cheap - near £1000 + fitting)

I strongly suspect most people with and who acutally use a reasonable amount / a lot of electric heating - would be cheaper on an E7 tariff. 

As the bigger long term risk of SR - is losing the cheaper rate for most of your power usage - heating and hot water.  But not all E7 rates are the same - vary greatly by region and supplier - so shop around - EDF and Octopus tables can be found in posts here or on their sites.

The comparison for E7 vs SR tariff - comes down to percentage peak vs off-peak and the unit rates.  So what your average rate would be.  If your old bills were multirate that might give you a clue.  Or simply compare say cold month like Mar with warmer May - in kWh terms - not cost in £/p.  As most of the difference will then be heat.

% Night * Night Rate + % Day * Day Rate = Average Rate vs Single Rate.

Typically around 42% night is a break even point for E7 to be cheaper than SR - but it varies by region / supplier.

My off-peak use goes 90%+ in cold snaps over winter - my annual average over 70% - but thats a bit easier on E10.

Gerry1

>But if you did find the old heaters were a problem - HHR panels might solve the problem (large ones not cheap - near £1000 + fitting)

No such things as HHR panels.

Either you have cheap-to-buy but bankruptcy-inducing panel heaters that have to run on the day rate OR HHR NSHs that aren't cheap to buy but run on the low E7 rate and don't waste so much heat when it's not needed.