Single supply Economy 7 Storage Heaters?

Stubod

Hi all,

I have had a bit of a dilema for a while regarding the options to replace some of our old storage heaters, (20+ years old). Last year I started looking and realised and realised any replacements would now need a dual supply, (ie economy 7 supply, and a seperate 24hr supply to run the timers). The problem being as they are the "old" type (pre lot 20), they only have the one (economy 7) supply.

However I now see that Elnur are making a "single power source" heater as a direct replacement for the older type heaters.

We have one heater, tht while it works it seems to lose heat quickly compared to a newer heater we installed a few years ago. I would like to replace this one heater with a more modern/ efficent heater so I was considering one of these new single supply heaters from Elnur. However, (at a push) I could probably run a new (24hr) supply from a wall socket that is close ('ish) to the radiator comncerned, and this would allow me to install one of the new "Dimplex" heaters instead.

Just wondering if anybody have any experience of either the new Elnur single supply units, and / or the modern Dimplex with the 24 hr supply?

Many thanks for any feedback... 

ngr49er

Hi There,

Can give you some info on the Elnur Ecombi HHR20/30/40 series, as my mum got them installed as part of a heating grant.

They run off a single socket that was a Economy 7 socket but is now a 24/7 socket, as the electricians changed something in the fuse board for them to be available 24/7.

The one thing this means is that the charging period and time must be correct on the Elnur timer, other wise you could end up charging the heater during the more expensive peak rate.

If this is done you will also get a timer for any immersion hot water tank you may have, as the economy 7 switch will now also be 24/7, at least it was for mum.

So if you want to keep everything as you have now you would be better off getting a second socket for the 24/7 part of the storage heater.

Also with an Elnur HHR, you can set the 24/7 heating element for upto how many hours you want to potentially use at peak rate and the HHR adjusts the overnight charging % automatically, but you will need to check this consistantly to make sure you are not spending too much.

You can also set the peak rate heating element to 0 hours but this means you would have to change the overnight charge every night, as the charge % will not change and could either not be enough or too much.

Overall compared to mum's previous older Dimplex XL24N storage heaters they are saving money and seem good, though compared to the XL24N which was child's play to operate, they are much more complicated to set up.

So check for ease of use, to see what is most suitable for yourself, comparing the Elnur to Diplex HHR.

Hope that helps a little.

Stubod

Hi NGR and many thanks for taking the time to reply.

I have just contacted the dealer who advertised them as "single source to replace old units", and they ae now backtracking on this statement.

I then phoned Elnur who also confirmed that "nobody" makes single source Storage heaters anymore?! So basically it is back to plan A. As I have a 3 pin socket within striking distance of most of our heaters (and we don't "do wallpaper"), it is not really a major problem as long as I can find a sparky to wire in another supply.

I was keen to hear about the efficiency of the modern storge heaters compared to the old ones, and from a cost point of view we have never had to repair or replace a boiler, and to date the storage heaters have been virtually maintenance free, but I am concerned about when they do eventually break down, (normally the heating elements and thermostate seem to go first, and there do seem to be some "spares" about if you are prepared to hunt the internet).

Due to energy costs being so high, (particularly electric), this / last Winter we only had 2 heaters on, one in the living room and one in the hall. I dread to think what the costs would have been if we had had them all on!!

The "newer" one in the living room still seems to be giving out heat well into the evening, but the one in the hall is pretty much cold by mid afternoon, so I am thinking of replacing this one before next Winter.

I spoke to our local electrican who has fitted both the Dimplex and the Elnur heaters, and "the jury is out" regarding which one is best. He has said the single biggest problem is the complexity of setting them up, and he has had to visit one elderly customer on a number of occasions to set them up for her. (Don't know why they have to make things so complicated!).

At least I guess that if they are still connected to the "Economy 7" supply there is no danger of them accidentally coming on during peak times...I don't think my wallet would stand it!!

[Deleted User]

Hi,

if your heaters are working fine, is it just because of looks you want to change, plenty refurb on ebay.

ngr49er

As far as I know you cannot connect storage heaters to a normal socket as they must be hardwired, at least that is what the sparky who fitted mum's said.

As I said they connect the HHR to the existing single socket but changed the storage heater circuit in the fuse board from the economy 7 timer to 24/7.

This means that I can charge the storage heater's and the immersion hot water tank 24/7 thought obviously will never do.

I didn't realise the change they had done until I switched on the hot water tank before I went to bed and saw it come on immediately (they conveniently did not tell me) and so I insisited they come back to fit a timer, so I can set the times for the hot water to be heated.

After the changes every socket in the house will be 24/7 and so you will have to use timers to make sure they only charge during economy 7 timer periods (watch out for GMT / BST changes in March / October).

I know what you mean regarding elderly person not understanding how to set an Elnur up, they are far too complicated for my mum, though as I am now her carer, she at least doesn't have that worry.

The Elnur charging timer only changes with 30min intervals not minte intervals, so as my mum's economy 7 times are 12:08am - 7:08am GMT and + 1 hour BST, I set the time on the Elnur HHR's to 8 minutes behind on the clock to make sure no charge goes on peak rate.

Dimplex may be more user friendly, though once you understand the quirks of the Elnur you can compensate, though you should not have to.

They will seem complicated to set up in the begining but after a bit of practise they will become much easier to understand how to set them up.

As long as you get the correct size Elnur model for the room to heat, then going cold in the evening will not be a problem.

There are some youtube videos available if you prefer to see how to set them up rather than reading text.

Again don't know how easy the Dimplex model is compared to the Elnur but you will get used to the Elnur will a little bit of patience.

Gerry1

If your 'old and cold' NSH used to work OK it may just need a failed element to be replaced.  That's cheap and easy.

To check, when E7 kicks in around midnight set the input control to maximum and turn everything else off.  Count the number of impulses (flashes) per minute on the meter's metrology light.

For example, if it's marked 1000 imp/kWh and there are 40 flashes/min then it's drawing 2.4kW.  If it's a 3.6kW NSH then it's likely that it has three elements but one has failed.

Of course, a new HHR NSH will be cheaper to run because it won't waste so much heat during the night when it's not needed, but they're not cheap.

Not sure that @ngr49er is correct about the top-up (balancing) element.  IF correctly dimensioned and programmed it should seldom need to be used, just as well because peak E7 is so expensive.

But my understanding is that with the maximum top-up time set to zero you shouldn't need to change the charge rate daily, you just tell it the temperatures you want and at which times and it does the rest.  If there's a sudden cold snap you can always turn on the boost manually.

ngr49er

Gerry1 said:

If your 'old and cold' NSH used to work OK it may just need a failed element to be replaced.  That's cheap and easy.

To check, when E7 kicks in around midnight set the input control to maximum and turn everything else off.  Count the number of impulses (flashes) per minute on the meter's metrology light.

For example, if it's marked 1000 imp/kWh and there are 40 flashes/min then it's drawing 2.4kW.  If it's a 3.6kW NSH then it's likely that it has three elements but one has failed.

Of course, a new HHR NSH will be cheaper to run because it won't waste so much heat during the night when it's not needed, but they're not cheap.

Not sure that @ngr49er is correct about the top-up (balancing) element.  IF correctly dimensioned and programmed it should seldom need to be used, just as well because peak E7 is so expensive.

But my understanding is that with the maximum top-up time set to zero you shouldn't need to change the charge rate daily, you just tell it the temperatures you want and at which times and it does the rest.  If there's a sudden cold snap you can always turn on the boost manually.

The way I understand the Elnur's, is if the daytime rate balancing element is set to 0 hours, then what ever overnight charge % you have the unit set to, it will never adjust automatically. You have to set the balancing element to at least 1 hour, for the overnight charge % to change automatically. At least that is what the manual says and I admit that I have so far always had the balancing element set to at least 1 hour.

Gerry1

You may wish to check with Dimplex whether the Quantum can use a single 24h suppply.  This certainly used to be the case: search on my previous posts and you'll find the page in the installation manual that shows the internal wiring changes that are needed.

Swipe

As Gerry said, it's probably just one of the elements that has failed. You can buy refurbed Creda TSR heaters for next to nothing and it's just a straight DIY swap out. Fix the back plate to the wall, connect the existing socket cable to the new heater and then insert and affix it to the back plate. 30 mins work max.

Gerry1

ngr49er said:

Gerry1 said:

If your 'old and cold' NSH used to work OK it may just need a failed element to be replaced.  That's cheap and easy.

To check, when E7 kicks in around midnight set the input control to maximum and turn everything else off.  Count the number of impulses (flashes) per minute on the meter's metrology light.

For example, if it's marked 1000 imp/kWh and there are 40 flashes/min then it's drawing 2.4kW.  If it's a 3.6kW NSH then it's likely that it has three elements but one has failed.

Of course, a new HHR NSH will be cheaper to run because it won't waste so much heat during the night when it's not needed, but they're not cheap.

Not sure that @ngr49er is correct about the top-up (balancing) element.  IF correctly dimensioned and programmed it should seldom need to be used, just as well because peak E7 is so expensive.

But my understanding is that with the maximum top-up time set to zero you shouldn't need to change the charge rate daily, you just tell it the temperatures you want and at which times and it does the rest.  If there's a sudden cold snap you can always turn on the boost manually.

The way I understand the Elnur's, is if the daytime rate balancing element is set to 0 hours, then what ever overnight charge % you have the unit set to, it will never adjust automatically. You have to set the balancing element to at least 1 hour, for the overnight charge % to change automatically. At least that is what the manual says and I admit that I have so far always had the balancing element set to at least 1 hour.

I'm guessing because I've never had a HHR NSH, but the balancing element figure is probably just the maximum allowed if it runs out of stored charge.  Perhaps they're being cautious to avoid complaints along the lines of 'we spent our live savings on shiny new heaters but we're still cold in the evening'.

Having to top up with peak rate electricity every day can't be the usual modus operandi, it defeats the point of NSHs.  It should be much more of 'break glass for emergency exit' feature. @EssexHebridean may be able to advise.

ngr49er

I think with Elnur HHR's it is the expected modus operandi.

The logic Ibelieve is that balancing element is approximately a third in size (kw's) of the storage heater element on all 3 model sizes.

So unless the daytime rate you're paying is over 3 times the nightime rate, it just about equals out, if or when the balancing element is then required in the evening.

Though this would not be cost effective if you were on one of EDF's very low night rate / very high day rate this past winter.

There to save money you would absolutely have to set it to 0 hours and adjust the overnight charge accordingly each night (much like an old style storage heater).

Though unfortunately the then manual use of the balancing element / boost in the evening if required, is much more cumbersome than an old style storage heater of just turning a boost dial.