State pensions around the world

arnoldy

zagfles said:

They're probably better targetted in Germany and other countries, the UK has massively more working age people claiming disability benefits than other countries, something like 7% in the UK compared to under 2% in most countries, there was a Scottish govt report on this.

Feels like we should use the German system here. Either they are wrong or we are - I suspect the Germans have got it right on the 2% targeted population.

MattMattMattUK

zagfles said:

Suhusa said:

Re the capped prescription charges - again that is not something that's unique to the UK.

zagfles said:

Suhusa said:

The UK does have co-payments - for prescriptions. They should be a bit higher now than in Germany, where they are €5 to €10 depending on the cost of the medication. What the UK doesn't seem to have is a €10 per day payment for hospital stays (which essentially pays for food and cleaning and which is capped, although I'd have to look up at what amount). What the UK to my knowledge also doesn't have is all sorts of mobility and disability aids - whether that's electric wheelchairs, screen readers, rollatore or assistance dogs - provided through the health system, at a co-pay of again €10. I know that some health insurers try to fob people off at first, but knowing you're entitled to such aids instead of relying on charities to provide them or having to pay a substantial part of their cost yourself is well worth paying a higher share of your income towards the health system.

In the UK there are generally cash disability benefits eg PIP/DLA/AA/motability cars etc. It would perhaps be better to pay for mobility/disability aids directly more, as some people getting PIP/DLA etc don't actually need to spend extra due to their disability. In some cases their disability means they need less!

Germany has both - because those are two different things. You need disability aids, but you may for example also have a lot higher taxi costs because you're not allowed to drive, or you need to pay someone to do your tax return for you, or you need to buy special food or... In Germany the cash payments and/or tax breaks are supposed to cushion the higher day to day costs because of your disability, which can't be mitigated by having the correct disability aids. Whereas the provision of disability aids is basically a reasonable adjustment, but for your private life.

They're probably better targetted in Germany and other countries, the UK has massively more working age people claiming disability benefits than other countries, something like 7% in the UK compared to under 2% in most countries, there was a Scottish govt report on this.

It seems implausible that the UK has so many more disabled people than almost any other comparable nation, our figures are very woolly as well. The stats also do not hold up to most people's experience of real life, we seem to have created a situation where we have 350% of the number of disabled people compared to comparable nations, we provide them with benefits, yet whilst we have this massively inflated group we often fail to look after those who are in genuine need, our disability benefits system is broken, the starting point of that might well be our definition of disabled. 

Suhusa

Frankly, speaking as someone who has two (nowadays well-controlled) chronic conditions and given how treating chronic conditions is not one of the strengths of the NHS, some of those 7% may have become disabled to the point of having to be in benefits due to how the UK health system is set up - with it's stringent short-term cost-benefit analyses and box ticking. For me it was a struggle to find treatment in Germany because of an obstructive doctor, but once I got treatment it was swift and generous. I know from people with the same condition in the UK, and from having experienced the difference between the two health systems myself, that if that had been in the UK when I got treatment I'd likely not be in a state to work anymore because the treatment that helped me is often not made available in the UK (and even getting the medication administered correctly after I'd moved to the UK was always a fight with the nurse). Also, coming from an economically weak area of Germany, at least in North West England you see a lot more people with visible health problems around.

zagfles

MattMattMattUK said:

zagfles said:

Suhusa said:

Re the capped prescription charges - again that is not something that's unique to the UK.

zagfles said:

Suhusa said:

The UK does have co-payments - for prescriptions. They should be a bit higher now than in Germany, where they are €5 to €10 depending on the cost of the medication. What the UK doesn't seem to have is a €10 per day payment for hospital stays (which essentially pays for food and cleaning and which is capped, although I'd have to look up at what amount). What the UK to my knowledge also doesn't have is all sorts of mobility and disability aids - whether that's electric wheelchairs, screen readers, rollatore or assistance dogs - provided through the health system, at a co-pay of again €10. I know that some health insurers try to fob people off at first, but knowing you're entitled to such aids instead of relying on charities to provide them or having to pay a substantial part of their cost yourself is well worth paying a higher share of your income towards the health system.

In the UK there are generally cash disability benefits eg PIP/DLA/AA/motability cars etc. It would perhaps be better to pay for mobility/disability aids directly more, as some people getting PIP/DLA etc don't actually need to spend extra due to their disability. In some cases their disability means they need less!

Germany has both - because those are two different things. You need disability aids, but you may for example also have a lot higher taxi costs because you're not allowed to drive, or you need to pay someone to do your tax return for you, or you need to buy special food or... In Germany the cash payments and/or tax breaks are supposed to cushion the higher day to day costs because of your disability, which can't be mitigated by having the correct disability aids. Whereas the provision of disability aids is basically a reasonable adjustment, but for your private life.

They're probably better targetted in Germany and other countries, the UK has massively more working age people claiming disability benefits than other countries, something like 7% in the UK compared to under 2% in most countries, there was a Scottish govt report on this.

It seems implausible that the UK has so many more disabled people than almost any other comparable nation, our figures are very woolly as well. The stats also do not hold up to most people's experience of real life, we seem to have created a situation where we have 350% of the number of disabled people compared to comparable nations, we provide them with benefits, yet whilst we have this massively inflated group we often fail to look after those who are in genuine need, our disability benefits system is broken, the starting point of that might well be our definition of disabled. 

That I think is the problem - there are people gaming the system on the one hand and on the other there are people who genuinely need help but don't know what hoops they need to jump through, or who don't feel they are deserving enough for help and so don't get any.

It's interesting that with vaguely related things, such as whiplash claims after a car accident, there's a similar discrepancy between UK and other countries:

https://www.actuarialpost.co.uk/article/uk-the-whiplash-capital-of-europe-4710.htm

zagfles

Suhusa said:

Frankly, speaking as someone who has two (nowadays well-controlled) chronic conditions and given how treating chronic conditions is not one of the strengths of the NHS, some of those 7% may have become disabled to the point of having to be in benefits due to how the UK health system is set up - with it's stringent short-term cost-benefit analyses and box ticking. For me it was a struggle to find treatment in Germany because of an obstructive doctor, but once I got treatment it was swift and generous. I know from people with the same condition in the UK, and from having experienced the difference between the two health systems myself, that if that had been in the UK when I got treatment I'd likely not be in a state to work anymore because the treatment that helped me is often not made available in the UK (and even getting the medication administered correctly after I'd moved to the UK was always a fight with the nurse). Also, coming from an economically weak area of Germany, at least in North West England you see a lot more people with visible health problems around.

Yes this is probably a part of it, and I think the other problem in the UK is we are quick to write people off with the "limited capacity for work" label. Everyone has "limited capacity for work" depending on their abilities and experience, it's a pointless label. A colleague of mine is in a wheelchair and he's better at his job than me or most other people could ever hope to be. We seem to treat disabled people as charity cases rather than people most of whom are perfectly capable of contributing to society in some way, just differently. The benefits system is a nightmare for people who may be able to work but intermittantly.

Suhusa

zagfles said:

Suhusa said:

Frankly, speaking as someone who has two (nowadays well-controlled) chronic conditions and given how treating chronic conditions is not one of the strengths of the NHS, some of those 7% may have become disabled to the point of having to be in benefits due to how the UK health system is set up - with it's stringent short-term cost-benefit analyses and box ticking. For me it was a struggle to find treatment in Germany because of an obstructive doctor, but once I got treatment it was swift and generous. I know from people with the same condition in the UK, and from having experienced the difference between the two health systems myself, that if that had been in the UK when I got treatment I'd likely not be in a state to work anymore because the treatment that helped me is often not made available in the UK (and even getting the medication administered correctly after I'd moved to the UK was always a fight with the nurse). Also, coming from an economically weak area of Germany, at least in North West England you see a lot more people with visible health problems around.

Yes this is probably a part of it, and I think the other problem in the UK is we are quick to write people off with the "limited capacity for work" label. Everyone has "limited capacity for work" depending on their abilities and experience, it's a pointless label. A colleague of mine is in a wheelchair and he's better at his job than me or most other people could ever hope to be. We seem to treat disabled people as charity cases rather than people most of whom are perfectly capable of contributing to society in some way, just differently. The benefits system is a nightmare for people who may be able to work but intermittantly.

That is a problem in Germany too. Far too many companies prefer paying a levy rather than employing disabled people (even though they can actually get money to help with the reasonable adjustments!).

eastcorkram

arnoldy said:

The UK does have co-payments - for prescriptions

Not for pensioners it doesn't. Even for working age there are so many exclusions very few <<1 in 5 pay them.

Or for anyone at all in Scotland or Wales.

Brie

My Canadian pension kicked in at 65 and will do the same with the OH when he hits that age.  I get a quarter of what I will get from my UK pension for working about 10 years there and OH will get a tiddly amount for working about 2 years.  I'm ok with all that.  

Weird thing was that there was no forecast available unless you wrote to them or phoned.  I did get confirmation about 10 months before that yes I would get a pension but they couldn't tell me how much.  Not even a prediction based on past contributions which ended in the early 90s.  So I rang them once I turned 65 to confirm what it would be and was told that they were planning on sending my cheques by snail mail!! NO!!!! Fortunately I have an account in Canada and it was easy for them to take instructions over the phone and pop the money directly into that.  Still have to find an easy/cheap way to shift the money to the UK but I'm working on that.

Suhusa

Brie said:

My Canadian pension kicked in at 65 and will do the same with the OH when he hits that age.  I get a quarter of what I will get from my UK pension for working about 10 years there and OH will get a tiddly amount for working about 2 years.  I'm ok with all that.  

Weird thing was that there was no forecast available unless you wrote to them or phoned.  I did get confirmation about 10 months before that yes I would get a pension but they couldn't tell me how much.  Not even a prediction based on past contributions which ended in the early 90s.  So I rang them once I turned 65 to confirm what it would be and was told that they were planning on sending my cheques by snail mail!! NO!!!! Fortunately I have an account in Canada and it was easy for them to take instructions over the phone and pop the money directly into that.  Still have to find an easy/cheap way to shift the money to the UK but I'm working on that.

Doesn't Wise do Canadian dollars?

bostonerimus

I will get both US and UK "state pensions" and the US one is far more generous. 

US Social Security
paid by payroll tax of 7.65% on employer and employee (this FICA tax funds social security and over age 65 medical care)
with 30 years of contributions and if I was age 67 I'd be getting $34k(27k pounds)/year if I retired today

UK state pension
12% employee NI and 13.8% employer NI, although there are obviously thresholds and NI pays for more than just pension.
I have 35 full years of NI and will get full state pension of 10.6k pounds/year if I took it today.

So my US social security will be almost 3 times my UK state pension.