Campaign for Honest Council Tax Assessments – Lothian, Scotland - This Post is now closed

GlennCTax

At the time of our 2nd meeting with this assessor, we alluded to the fact that he was not being honest with us, we showed him our evidence.  The assessor appeared to be backing down, he stated he may not take our Case to the Hearing, he asked if we liked this change he was implying.  He then stated he would review our Case and come back to us in a months time.

After waiting approx 11 weeks we contacted him for an update.  4 weeks later he replied stating he had been off sick and had holidays to take.  He said he was retiring and would pass our file on to his immediate Line Manager who would review our Case.  

As we heard nothing from the Line Manager for approx 5 weeks, we phoned and spoke to someone at their offices (we did not know at that time the person we got through to was the Line Manager who was to review our Case approx 5 weeks earlier).

This person claimed he was just an outsider and denied any knowledge of the review of our Case.  He stated it must have been someone else dealing with the review - Not True.   A FOI request shows this was the Line Manager who was instructed to review our Case.  

During this phone call, this Line Manager also told us the people dealing with our Case were on holiday - Not True.  From a FOI request we later obtained, it showed he and another assessor had taken over our Case a few days before we made this phone call, which meant this Line Manager was dealing with our Case and he was not on holiday, he was speaking to us on the phone giving us repeated misleading statements.  (This is not hearsay as the phone call was taped)

Eventually we had a meeting with this Line Manager and the other assessor, who had now taken over our Case.  We welcomed them into our house.  As the meeting progressed, the number of misleading evidence and statements accelerated.  Our evidence shows the use of misleading evidence is endemic within this organisation.

As we are campaigning for change, we are looking for other Appellants that have had any similar experience with the Lothian Assessors, if so we would like to hear from you.

We will continue to give updates in  the coming days.

GlennCTax

One of the assessors who took over our case was a Council Tax Manager.  He had approx 40 years experience with the Assessors Office.  We asked this CT Manager to send us information of how they measure/assess properties.

This CT Manager sent us 9 pages of Measurement and Reduction Factor Instructions.  He repeatedly informed us  that these are the instructions that are used by staff.  These Reduction Factors greatly reduced the size of our attic.

However, when we asked him to measure our property in line with these Instructions, he then claimed the Instructions were from a previously used system.  He later claimed he does not use any paperwork.  He has no Documented Instructions.

All of our Documented and Taped evidence shows the assessors do indeed use these Instructions.

The "Assessor" confirmed these Reduction Factors are used.  

Our previous assessor used Reduction Factors to reduce the size of our attic due to its heavy sloping ceilings and low wall height.  He also used the Reduced size in his Court Productions.

This CT Manager had also explained to us, how he works daily with these Instructions when he is working with trainees.  (Taped evidence)

We also have evidence from other Appellants Hearings that Reduction Factors are used.  

This CT Manager went on to mislead in every area of his Court Productions.

Please let us know if you have had any similar experience.

Will give updates in the coming days/weeks.

lincroft1710

Although there are Scottish MSErs, I don't know if there are any from the Lothians and of those if any have experienced unfair treatment from the Assessor. The majority of users of this board are English and thus would not have experience of dealing with an Assessor. You might get better results looking for a Scottish forum which deals with consumer issues or unfair treatment by officials.


The English and Welsh equivalent of the Assessor, the Valuation Office Agency has a different set up. It is an Executive Agency of HMRC and so is one body. Prior to recent centralisation, a local office would deal with CT bands of several different councils.


I am not disputing what you are saying, but your experience of the Assessor is absolutely unbelievable. A VOA employee who attempted to wilfully falsify information or deliberately lie would be in very serious trouble. The E/W equivalent of the Valuation Appeal Committee, the Valuation Tribunal would severely criticise a member of the VOA who attempted to mislead a VT hearing and would report the matter back to the member's line manager at the very least.


I'm ex VOA and the following example will show that even on an undisputed matter the VT took no prisoners.


I had an appeal which I could agree to the CT payer's request for a lower band. I had sent out forms agreeing to the reduction but had not received them back (a not uncommon occurrence). About 48 hours before the  hearing, the VT rang me to say the CT payer had contacted them and wanted an even lower band than the one he had asked for on his appeal and thus his appeal would be heard and would not be adjourned. I was unable to serve the CT payer the evidence I would use. Even though it was not my fault I was criticised by the VT for my lack of evidence and in due course my line manager was informed and I had to explain myself. I was able to acquit myself and it was eventually accepted by both the VT and my line manager that I was not at fault.   

penners324

Bring back the community charge. A far easier and fairer system 

lincroft1710

penners324 said:

Bring back the community charge. A far easier and fairer system 

I think it was too easy to slip under the radar with the CC. Governments seem to prefer a property based tax,  currently CT for 30 yrs, and domestic rates stretching back from 1990 well into the 19th century, if not earlier. The CC existed for a mere 3 yrs. Apparently the Welsh Assembly decided last year that there would be a CT revaluation in Wales

GlennCTax

Hi Lincroft, thanks again for the advice.  We have read your posts of the past few years which have helped numerous members of the public with your balanced and informative responses.  We are using as many outlets as we can to put out our message.  

We also signed up with Twitter, we are writing to the TV and Newspaper Agencies etc.  There is a lot of competition when it comes to trying to get your story out.  The say perseverance is needed.  

This Campaign is no longer about a CT Band being raised.  We firmly believe 1000s of Appellants may have been placed in the wrong Banding due to misleading evidence being used by the assessors.  

With the  evidence we have acquired, we can see this type of behaviour has been going on for decades.  The "Assessor", Depute Assessor and another 5 Senior staff members have all been using misleading evidence.  

New trainees are being trained by the assessors that have used so much misleading evidence.  What chance do the ordinary members of the public have when new trainees are being shown how to use misleading evidence.  

We were sorry to hear about your ordeal while working at VOA.  As you say there was not much you could do, the request to move down a further Band at such short notice did appear to be totally unreasonable.

We are continually searching for different forums.  As we have no other outlets at the moment, we will continue with Twitter and this site for the time being.

Thanks again, your advice is appreciated.  Best wishes.

lincroft1710

Have you contacted your MSP?

GlennCTax

Hi lincroft, thanks for your suggestion.  We wrote to 15 Councillors who are part of a Committee who regularly meet with the assessors.  The only request we made was that the Councillors would acknowledge receipt of our email.  Not one responded or acknowledged receipt of our email.

We wrote to the Secretary of the Valuation Appeal Hearing (VAC),  he made it clear he did not wish us to contact him again.

The only way to contact the Chairman of the VAC, is to write to the Secretary.  

We wrote to the Chairman of the VAC and the Depute Chair, through the Secretary.  The Chairman claimed that as we did not have a date for our Hearing of Appeal he could not read our information.  He also informed us he would not be passing on our information to the Depute Chair.

When we received a date for our Hearing of Appeal, we wrote again to the Chairman.  The Secretary replied stating he would not be passing our information on to the Chairman.  This is only a sample of the issues we have encountered in relation to our Hearing of Appeal.

We have also met with another Appellant who informed us she had written to her MSP, the Scottish Parliament and other agencies in relation to her own Hearing of Appeal - to no avail.

Today as usual, we have written to the TV media, Newspapers and sent out a number of Tweets on Twitter.

We believe the only way our story will come out is through an independent media source.

GlennCTax

One of the new assessors who took over our Case after the previous assessor retired, was a Council Tax Manager.  He had approx 40 years experience with the Assessors Office. 

We were told the CT Manager has had a lifetime working in Council Tax, he trains other staff members, he has attended many Appeal Hearings.  He explained his College Education and the training he had gone through over the years, a very experience staff member.  

From the very outset, on the first phone call with this CT Manager, I explained to him, the trouble I had with the previous assessor giving me misleading information and misleading sizes, and what I needed from this CT Manager was clear information on how they measure and assess properties for Council Tax.

1 - Yet when I asked him during this phone call if the assessors use a Code of Measurement while assessing properties:

 - he said he did not know!  (All  statements are on Taped evidence)

2 - I asked if they use RICS (Royal Institute for Chartered Surveyors)
 - again he replied he did not know!  

3 - This is the same CT Manager at our house meeting, who forgot our House File was under his arm, when he thought it was in the car. 

It was not until an old House Card relating to our property fell out of the File he was holding, that he then admitted the  House File was not in the car after all, it was under his arm all the time!

4 - I took a copy of this old House Card, it proved that he and the previous assessor were misleading their sizes!

5 - This is the same assessor who informed us, there was no one more honest than me. 

This again is only a small sample of this CT Mangers behaviour.  

If you have had a similar experience, let us know.

I shall give more updates in the coming days/weeks.

GlennCTax

When I asked the Council Tax Manager if he could give me an explanation of what the "Class of a property" is.  I explained that the previous assessor gave us an explanation, however, I would like to hear his explanation.  The CT Manager refused to give us an explanation as he said he was worried that he might tell me something different from the previous assessor!!

I explained to the CT Manager that he should not be concerning himself with what the other assessors said, he has an obligation to explain his version.  Eventually the CT Manger gave us an explanation.  I found it concerning that this CT Manager was worried that he may give a different version from the previous assessor!

When this CT Manager was measuring my attic, he stated that  the attic  would need to be measured internally.  When we told him the previous assessor measured our attic externally, he again told us that as we are in the attic it needs to be measured internally.   The CT Manager then changed his mind and said he would also have to measure the attic externally!!  - An internal measurement would greatly reduce the size of our Cottage as our walls are 2 feet wide at the Gables.

This is the same CT Manager who had informed us he has been in 1000s of attics, yet he is now changing his mind to agree with the previous assessor!!  We have since gathered evidence that shows the attic should be measured internally. 

This is the same CT Manager that sent us 9 pages of Practice Notes informing us that these Practice Notes are used by his staff, then later claimed they are old Practice Notes when he realised the Practice Notes favour our Case!!

This CT Manager then informed us they do not have any Practice Notes and they do not use any Paperwork!

How can we or any Appellant challenge the assessors measurements in Court when they claim they have no paperwork to show they are measuring to a specified standard.  Our evidence already shows the assessors keep giving us different methods of measuring and assessing.  It's not surprising the Barclay Report of 2017 warned the assessors they would need to change their behaviour! 

We ask no one to take our word for any of the allegations we make.  All of our allegations are backed up with Taped and Documented evidence.

This is still only a sample of this CT Managers behaviour.

We have read throughout the 300 pagers of Court Minutes, and can see there are numerous Appellants who have made similar complaints during their Court Hearings.  If you would like to share your evidence, feel free to add your comments.

I shall give more updates in the coming days/weeks.