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Downvaluation (automated) by lender

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Comments

  • lookstraightahead
    lookstraightahead Posts: 5,558 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 11 April 2023 at 10:04AM
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are also people who feel uncomfortable negotiating and prefer to pay what is asked.
  • nuhopper
    nuhopper Posts: 16 Forumite
    Ninth Anniversary 10 Posts Combo Breaker
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
  • lookstraightahead
    lookstraightahead Posts: 5,558 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 11 April 2023 at 10:59AM
    nuhopper said:
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
    How long are you willing to wait for something else to come onto the market that you like?

    A tin of beans is a very poor example to use. One tin of beans is exactly the same as another tin of beans a few doors down. But houses are not like that. Every house is individual. There is no "standard" asking price system because each property is so very unique.
    It's how much emphasis you place on something actually. You can find something else, always. Houses are no exception. If you feel you've overpaid, it can spoil your enjoyment of something, sometimes. 
    Not all houses are individual. I don't think beans is a bad example, but use anything else - there's usually an alternative. There are houses everywhere you look. There might be one in a blue moon that you're desperate for that will make you happy for ever, but I would say those who miss out on a property find another one they like equally, if not more.
  • Sarah1Mitty2
    Sarah1Mitty2 Posts: 1,838 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    nuhopper said:
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
    How long are you willing to wait for something else to come onto the market that you like?

    A tin of beans is a very poor example to use. One tin of beans is exactly the same as another tin of beans a few doors down. But houses are not like that. Every house is individual. There is no "standard" asking price system because each property is so very unique.
    The majority of housing in the UK isn`t "unique" in any way, there are millions of flats, new-builds and terraces, all built to more or less the same blueprint, most people buying will find something else if the seller is too difficult.
  • Sarah1Mitty2
    Sarah1Mitty2 Posts: 1,838 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    nuhopper said:
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
    How long are you willing to wait for something else to come onto the market that you like?

    A tin of beans is a very poor example to use. One tin of beans is exactly the same as another tin of beans a few doors down. But houses are not like that. Every house is individual. There is no "standard" asking price system because each property is so very unique.
    It's how much emphasis you place on something actually. You can find something else, always. Houses are no exception. If you feel you've overpaid, it can spoil your enjoyment of something, sometimes. 
    Not all houses are individual. I don't think beans is a bad example, but use anything else - there's usually an alternative. There are houses everywhere you look. There might be one in a blue moon that you're desperate for that will make you happy for ever, but I would say those who miss out on a property find another one they like equally, if not more.
    The problem with overpaying now is that changes are happening so fast that people have not yet adjusted their mind-set away from peak-prices, that means that the OP may find in a couple of years that they really overpaid, by a LOT.
  • MobileSaver
    MobileSaver Posts: 4,337 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    nuhopper said:
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
    How long are you willing to wait for something else to come onto the market that you like?

    A tin of beans is a very poor example to use. One tin of beans is exactly the same as another tin of beans a few doors down. But houses are not like that. Every house is individual. There is no "standard" asking price system because each property is so very unique.
    The majority of housing in the UK isn`t "unique" in any way, there are millions of flats, new-builds and terraces, all built to more or less the same blueprint, most people buying will find something else if the seller is too difficult.
    I think you and @lookstraightahead are very wrong on this, there are relatively few genuinely identical properties in the UK and an even smaller percentage are actually available to buy at any one time. Buying a home is nothing like buying a tin of beans.
    Regardless, the OP is not interested in the majority of housing in the UK, they're interested in an £800k property in a particular part of London and as they say "other houses around have sold for much more but have been modernised and extended" so finding something else is much more difficult than you are claiming...
    Every generation blames the one before...
    Mike + The Mechanics - The Living Years
  • Sunsaru
    Sunsaru Posts: 737 Forumite
    500 Posts Second Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper
    nuhopper said:
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
    How long are you willing to wait for something else to come onto the market that you like?

    A tin of beans is a very poor example to use. One tin of beans is exactly the same as another tin of beans a few doors down. But houses are not like that. Every house is individual. There is no "standard" asking price system because each property is so very unique.
    The majority of housing in the UK isn`t "unique" in any way, there are millions of flats, new-builds and terraces, all built to more or less the same blueprint, most people buying will find something else if the seller is too difficult.
    I think you and @lookstraightahead are very wrong on this, there are relatively few genuinely identical properties in the UK and an even smaller percentage are actually available to buy at any one time. Buying a home is nothing like buying a tin of beans.
    Regardless, the OP is not interested in the majority of housing in the UK, they're interested in an £800k property in a particular part of London and as they say "other houses around have sold for much more but have been modernised and extended" so finding something else is much more difficult than you are claiming...
    Dude, have you seen the rows of terraced houses in the northwest??
    Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.
  • RelievedSheff
    RelievedSheff Posts: 12,678 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Sixth Anniversary Name Dropper Photogenic
    Sunsaru said:
    nuhopper said:
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
    How long are you willing to wait for something else to come onto the market that you like?

    A tin of beans is a very poor example to use. One tin of beans is exactly the same as another tin of beans a few doors down. But houses are not like that. Every house is individual. There is no "standard" asking price system because each property is so very unique.
    The majority of housing in the UK isn`t "unique" in any way, there are millions of flats, new-builds and terraces, all built to more or less the same blueprint, most people buying will find something else if the seller is too difficult.
    I think you and @lookstraightahead are very wrong on this, there are relatively few genuinely identical properties in the UK and an even smaller percentage are actually available to buy at any one time. Buying a home is nothing like buying a tin of beans.
    Regardless, the OP is not interested in the majority of housing in the UK, they're interested in an £800k property in a particular part of London and as they say "other houses around have sold for much more but have been modernised and extended" so finding something else is much more difficult than you are claiming...
    Dude, have you seen the rows of terraced houses in the northwest??
    Have you seen inside them?

    They will all be different. They may have started out as identical properties when they were built but a succession of owners will have each put their own mark and stamp on them. Most will be remodelled inside, have had extensions, kitchens and bathrooms moved etc.

    Even two one year old properties that were "out of the box" very similar (they wouldn't be exactly the same as they are on different plots) would be completely different after their first owners have lived with them for 12 months.
  • Sunsaru
    Sunsaru Posts: 737 Forumite
    500 Posts Second Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper
    Sunsaru said:
    nuhopper said:
    nuhopper said:
    Also to say the house is very much within our affordability with us being able to hold about 100k back for refurbs. I just don't want to pay £30k over the odds. We sold for a fair price after doing a lot of work to our house so I'd like to feel we got our next  house at a fair price too. I don't know if it's just London  but even as a chain free buyer it feels like the vendor/ agent are always out for a few more grand and it gets to this point in the sale and I get confused, uncertain, feel ripped off and want to walk away.
    Nobody wants to pay £30k too much for anything

    but you focusing a bit too much on this aspect, 812/780k is a 4% deviation between what you agreed and what a bank in the current climate conservatively estimates.

    if you really liked something in a shop that you will use for many many years to come and it costs £104 instead of £100, would you let it go?

    its a matter of perspective and in this price range you shld stop focusing on the 30k aspect but focus on the % deviation
    I get your scenario, but if I could get it down the road for £4 cheaper I would do that. In fact, that's what everyone does in other scenarios, they tend to shop around. 

    One brand of baked beans is so randomly expensive now that I don't buy them. The price has made me shop around for something equally as tasty and they've lost my business.

     It's the randomness that's the problem. And I think the housing market is like that. There's no logic or sense to asking prices, and it makes people question and feel uncomfortable.

    There are people who will always not question and buy a brand of beans they're happy with, even if they pay more for no other reason than they're happy with that brand. This might just be habit or a load of other justifications. It depends how you are wired and your experiences.

    If there was just one tin of beans for 20 miles and the price was more, I'd probably buy spaghetti.

    You can apply this to big purchases, jobs, holidays, cars etc. 
    It's this, it's my cold feet/ sense of being done over kicking in at the last minute, now for the second time in 3 months. It's a game I want to have a fighting chance at now in my middle age. I'm also aware this house needs a ton of work. Yes we can afford it although some will need to be long term. But it's the knowledge that there won't be a huge queue of people wanting this house that strongly tempts me into testing the seller and makes me feel "how dare you for not selling it cheaper to us". Bit stupid...
    How long are you willing to wait for something else to come onto the market that you like?

    A tin of beans is a very poor example to use. One tin of beans is exactly the same as another tin of beans a few doors down. But houses are not like that. Every house is individual. There is no "standard" asking price system because each property is so very unique.
    The majority of housing in the UK isn`t "unique" in any way, there are millions of flats, new-builds and terraces, all built to more or less the same blueprint, most people buying will find something else if the seller is too difficult.
    I think you and @lookstraightahead are very wrong on this, there are relatively few genuinely identical properties in the UK and an even smaller percentage are actually available to buy at any one time. Buying a home is nothing like buying a tin of beans.
    Regardless, the OP is not interested in the majority of housing in the UK, they're interested in an £800k property in a particular part of London and as they say "other houses around have sold for much more but have been modernised and extended" so finding something else is much more difficult than you are claiming...
    Dude, have you seen the rows of terraced houses in the northwest??
    Have you seen inside them?

    They will all be different. They may have started out as identical properties when they were built but a succession of owners will have each put their own mark and stamp on them. Most will be remodelled inside, have had extensions, kitchens and bathrooms moved etc.

    Even two one year old properties that were "out of the box" very similar (they wouldn't be exactly the same as they are on different plots) would be completely different after their first owners have lived with them for 12 months.
    Have I seen inside them? Yes I used to live in one! And my good friend lived next door!

    I get your point to an extent and extensions etc can make a difference but if you can walk out of one house and walk into another and know exactly where bedroom 2 or the bathroom then that to me is pretty much identical.

    I'm happy to agree to disagree though.
    Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.
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