Can someone please put my mind at ease - prior approval permitted development

Scorpio33

Hi,

We are a family of 5 and are looking to add a fourth bedroom to our mid terraced house.

We first looked at a loft conversion, which was positive all round, until the architect looked at the detail and we just wouldn't get the head height required with all the beams etc. So then we looked at extending our conservatory slightly (single storey, from 3m to 4.5m depth) and it is very doable. The architect said that you apply to the council, they write to the neighbours and if no-one objects, then we can proceed. He also said that if someone does object, the likelyhood is that it won't get granted as "planners don't like having exensions more than 3m on terraced houses".

So we spoke to all the neigbours, who were positive. One next door to me (who it would impact most) said that they were thinking of moving and even thought of doing a similar extension themselves, so were positive and more than happy with our thoughts (it extends about 1.5m from where it currently is). So we put the application form in. The architect said not to do full plans yet as if would cost me £900 and if it doesn't get granted, it would be money down the drain.

Last weekend, I bumped into the neighbour, who said that he didn't realise how tall the extension would be (3m). I said that I was advised to put 3m on the form as that is what I was told to put by the architect, as it is the maximum height you can go up to. In reality, we are more than happy to keep it at 2 meters, as long as we can get a door into the garden from it. He seemed reassured.

2 days prior to the 21 day period, we then get an email from the council saying that a neighbour has objected, so "As such in order to assist with my assessment of the application, can you please provide full elevation plans of the proposal. Additionally, I will need to visit the site an carry out an assessment of the development impact.".

Now the council is coming round on Tuesday and is happy to come round without full plans. 

I am concerned, as the architect is saying that if a neighbour objects, it won't be granted. We also can't get a loft extension and can't afford the move to a 4 bed place (they are too expensive). I am concerned that we will be stuck where we are, then eventually have 3 teenage kids, two of who will be sharing, which will cause stress and issues.


Does anyone have any views on this? Are there any examples of 4.5m extensions on terraced houses that have been granted? Will it just mean a reissue of the application with plans of the height being only 2ish meters? Does anyone know what assesments the council will do?

I have a tendancy to over think things and look on the worse side of things, but I am concerned that we won't be able to do anything with the house and will be stuck here.

Doozergirl

You can't build a liveable room at 2m high externally, not unless you're planning to be partially underground?  

You could potentially have a dual-pitched roof with quite low eaves, so the impact on the neighbours is less than that of a taller flat roofed extension.  

Being prepared to accept lower head height at the sides (where it doesn't have much impact on you) will reduce the impact on the neighbours. 

You have an architect, you need to speak to them.   

Scorpio33

So where I have got with this:

- The council came round to look at it and they had plans of going 4.5m into the garden after the conservatory. I said those were not the plans I submitted, I only want 1.5m over what I currently have (but 4.5m in total).
- The council have agreed to resubmit the plans (with the correct outline map on it) at no cost, and extend the deadline for 3 weeks.
- I asked the council of their opinion of plans going 1.5m into the garden, their opinion is that they usually get approved.
- I then spoke to the neighbour who said that they didn't specifically object, the asked the council for clarification (which the council then took as an objection). Their main issue is that of the height of the conservatory, which I stated again, it is not the plan for to have a flat roof, but a slanted roof, being 3.5m at the highest point (which is what it is now) and 2.5m at the eaves. 
- I then asked the council to make the roof measurements clearer in the submission.
- The council are speaking to the neighbours today with the updated information.

So now I am waiting for the 3 weeks to go by and hopefully will hear some positive news.

theonlywayisup

What input has your architect had with the submission to the council - it sounds like a complete miscommunication?

Scorpio33

The architect just wasn't interested to be honest. I asked him for elevation plans, he filled out a manual form and provided a map with his version of the area mapped out (which was incorrect). He also wasn't interested in providing full plans until the permission was given. He has not charged me anything yet though....

ThisIsWeird

How much should/do planners take into account of a neighbour's objection?

I'd have thought that a consistent judgement ought to be made - yay max height, yay extended amount, and stuff like that, otherwise we are at the whim of neighbourly relationships. And even if a current neighb was ok about a, say, taller extension, that wouldn't necessarily apply to whoever they sell on to, so they've partially shot themselves in the foot. Conversely, a neighb you don't get on with will try and restrict development as much as possible.

So why isn't it simply writ in stone - 'these are your max size limits, end of'?

Section62

ThisIsWeird said:

How much should/do planners take into account of a neighbour's objection?

I'd have thought that a consistent judgement ought to be made - yay max height, yay extended amount, and stuff like that, otherwise we are at the whim of neighbourly relationships. And even if a current neighb was ok about a, say, taller extension, that wouldn't necessarily apply to whoever they sell on to, so they've partially shot themselves in the foot. Conversely, a neighb you don't get on with will try and restrict development as much as possible.

So why isn't it simply writ in stone - 'these are your max size limits, end of'?

Because every case is looked at on it own merits.

If there was some kind of absolute rule you'd eventually find a case where it made no sense to limit the height (e.g. the neighbour has already gone higher), in which case people would then start going on about pedantic council planners refusing to see common sense etc etc..

Neighbour comments are taken into account, but they don't have a veto. The general policies and 'rules' are in place to help protect neighbours whether they comment or not.

The main issue here seems to be the architect not producing plans (a rough sketch is all that is needed) which would help the neighbours and the planners work out what was proposed.

HHarry

ThisIsWeird said:

How much should/do planners take into account of a neighbour's objection?

I'd have thought that a consistent judgement ought to be made - yay max height, yay extended amount, and stuff like that, otherwise we are at the whim of neighbourly relationships. And even if a current neighb was ok about a, say, taller extension, that wouldn't necessarily apply to whoever they sell on to, so they've partially shot themselves in the foot. Conversely, a neighb you don't get on with will try and restrict development as much as possible.

So why isn't it simply writ in stone - 'these are your max size limits, end of'?

 That’s exactly what permitted development is - meet all of the specified criteria and you can build it.  You don’t even need to get a lawfulness certificate if you’re confident you meet the criteria.

 Even an objection to a Full planning permission application isn’t necessarily a problem.  We had one and, in discussion with the Planner, ammended the roof design slightly to address the Neighbours concerns.

ThisIsWeird

Thanks both.

Your example is the sort of thing I'm wondering about, HHarry - if an extension's size is clearly within PermDev, but a neighbour still complains about its height for example, then what? In your case you were 'happy' to amend the roof design - very thoughtful - but if this compromised the extension design too much, then what - the neighb has to accept it? Or their 'outside the remit of PermDev' complaint could still be upheld?

Section62

ThisIsWeird said:

Thanks both.

Your example is the sort of thing I'm wondering about, HHarry - if an extension's size is clearly within PermDev, but a neighbour still complains about its height for example, then what? In your case you were 'happy' to amend the roof design - very thoughtful - but if this compromised the extension design too much, then what - the neighb has to accept it? Or their 'outside the remit of PermDev' complaint could still be upheld?

If it is PD then the neighbour's complaint is irrelevant.

HHarry's case involved a full application.  Which you'd need to do if the proposal fell outside PD.  In that case the planners would look at the specifics of the case and try to achieve a happy balance between the conflicting views/needs.

ThisIsWeird

Thanks for the explanation.