promotion at work

Undervalued

Andy_L said:

TELLIT01 said:

lincroft1710 said:

TELLIT01 said:

Just to add to my previous comment.  I gained promotion at several employers without the jobs being advertised. I was simply asked if I wanted the role.  All in the private sector, as public sector often have their own requirements for jobs to be advertised internally and externally even if they have already decided who is going to get the job.  I saw that scenario more than once.

When I was in the CS, my first promotion was my manager saying to me at 4.00 pm "there's a promotion vacancy in X office (a town 60 miles away). Do you want it? Let me know by tomorrow" !.

That sounds like a sensible manager taking the pragmatic approach to filling a role.  More power to people like that.  I once applied for a role which required two very specific and totally unrelated skillset, which I had.  I must have been one of very few who could make that claim.  I had a letter within a week saying my application had been unsuccessful so I contacted their HR department to express my surprise.  They waffled on a bit trying to explain/justify the decision.  I then asked directly if they had been forced to advertise externally despite already having identified an internal candidate.  The response was "I can't answer that question", which actually did answer the question.

or it could be nepotism

Which isn't, in itself, unlawful!

Andy_L

Undervalued said:

Andy_L said:

TELLIT01 said:

lincroft1710 said:

TELLIT01 said:

Just to add to my previous comment.  I gained promotion at several employers without the jobs being advertised. I was simply asked if I wanted the role.  All in the private sector, as public sector often have their own requirements for jobs to be advertised internally and externally even if they have already decided who is going to get the job.  I saw that scenario more than once.

When I was in the CS, my first promotion was my manager saying to me at 4.00 pm "there's a promotion vacancy in X office (a town 60 miles away). Do you want it? Let me know by tomorrow" !.

That sounds like a sensible manager taking the pragmatic approach to filling a role.  More power to people like that.  I once applied for a role which required two very specific and totally unrelated skillset, which I had.  I must have been one of very few who could make that claim.  I had a letter within a week saying my application had been unsuccessful so I contacted their HR department to express my surprise.  They waffled on a bit trying to explain/justify the decision.  I then asked directly if they had been forced to advertise externally despite already having identified an internal candidate.  The response was "I can't answer that question", which actually did answer the question.

or it could be nepotism

Which isn't, in itself, unlawful!

In the civil service it might be

Initial appointment must be "on merit on the basis of fair and open competition"

Nepotism for promotion would breach the Civil Service Code's impartiality guidelines & I think the code has a statutory basis

lincroft1710

Emmia said:

TELLIT01 said:

lincroft1710 said:

TELLIT01 said:

Just to add to my previous comment.  I gained promotion at several employers without the jobs being advertised. I was simply asked if I wanted the role.  All in the private sector, as public sector often have their own requirements for jobs to be advertised internally and externally even if they have already decided who is going to get the job.  I saw that scenario more than once.

When I was in the CS, my first promotion was my manager saying to me at 4.00 pm "there's a promotion vacancy in X office (a town 60 miles away). Do you want it? Let me know by tomorrow" !.

That sounds like a sensible manager taking the pragmatic approach to filling a role.  More power to people like that.  I once applied for a role which required two very specific and totally unrelated skillset, which I had.  I must have been one of very few who could make that claim.  I had a letter within a week saying my application had been unsuccessful so I contacted their HR department to express my surprise.  They waffled on a bit trying to explain/justify the decision.  I then asked directly if they had been forced to advertise externally despite already having identified an internal candidate.  The response was "I can't answer that question", which actually did answer the question.

That's an unusual situation for a permanent CS promotion, a 6 month temporary promotion more likely but substantive promotions normally require a competitive application and interview process.

Years ago some CS departments had their own grades, which were not always allied to the usual CS grades. If a sudden vacancy occurred which needed filling quickly, senior managers would look at the people in the grade below, with the (usually specialist) knowledge and potential to encompass the skills needed in the higher grade. If they found someone (sometimes only one person fitted the bill), offer the promotion, vacancy filled, work gets done.

annetheman

Echo all above, this is very common, especially in my experience - I've only ever worked in the private sector but my own promotions have been totally discretionary following discussions with my manager, as have my colleagues'.

One of the most important factors in this has been clear communication that it isn't a "one and done" deal - promotions are available to everyone and if we feel we are ready, discuss in 1:1 with the manager, who will guide us in how to get to the next level.

If you're not having discussions about promotions with your line manager, I think it is unlikely you will be promoted; you do need to be sort of proactive about it.

It does seem unfair that you didn't realise there was a possibility of being 'senior' before this, but you do now, so definitely get discussing! Especially if it's likely to cause resentment to fester. I'd ensure it is clear following the discussion with your manager that a) there is room currently for further promotion to senior within the team including for you, and b) you have both defined and agreed what exactly you need to do to get there.

pjcox2005

If you would have liked the promotion, then I'd personally focus less on the process (assuming not nepotism or some other inappropriate form) and try to establish why others with less time there (not sure if they've got less experience) are seen as significantly better that they get the job without any discussion with yourself. How's your performance? What areas do you need to work on etc? Think you'll get more value looking at those queries than the process personally.

Emmia

lincroft1710 said:

Emmia said:

TELLIT01 said:

lincroft1710 said:

TELLIT01 said:

Just to add to my previous comment.  I gained promotion at several employers without the jobs being advertised. I was simply asked if I wanted the role.  All in the private sector, as public sector often have their own requirements for jobs to be advertised internally and externally even if they have already decided who is going to get the job.  I saw that scenario more than once.

When I was in the CS, my first promotion was my manager saying to me at 4.00 pm "there's a promotion vacancy in X office (a town 60 miles away). Do you want it? Let me know by tomorrow" !.

That sounds like a sensible manager taking the pragmatic approach to filling a role.  More power to people like that.  I once applied for a role which required two very specific and totally unrelated skillset, which I had.  I must have been one of very few who could make that claim.  I had a letter within a week saying my application had been unsuccessful so I contacted their HR department to express my surprise.  They waffled on a bit trying to explain/justify the decision.  I then asked directly if they had been forced to advertise externally despite already having identified an internal candidate.  The response was "I can't answer that question", which actually did answer the question.

That's an unusual situation for a permanent CS promotion, a 6 month temporary promotion more likely but substantive promotions normally require a competitive application and interview process.

Years ago some CS departments had their own grades, which were not always allied to the usual CS grades. If a sudden vacancy occurred which needed filling quickly, senior managers would look at the people in the grade below, with the (usually specialist) knowledge and potential to encompass the skills needed in the higher grade. If they found someone (sometimes only one person fitted the bill), offer the promotion, vacancy filled, work gets done.

That was years ago though - it's not in my experience as a current CS to be the usual process now. Formal promotions are competitive, and require an application, blind sift and interview.

Level transfer can happen as you describe, but a promotion only happens like this on a temporary basis for a maximum of 6 months (occasionally up to 12 if filling a maternity leave vacancy), and even that route normally has some degree of application and competition for the post.

r6mile

Emmia said:

That was years ago though - it's not in my experience as a current CS to be the usual process now. Formal promotions are competitive, and require an application, blind sift and interview.

Level transfer can happen as you describe, but a promotion only happens like this on a temporary basis for a maximum of 6 months (occasionally up to 12 if filling a maternity leave vacancy), and even that route normally has some degree of application and competition for the post.

Yes this is very much my experience as a civil servant as well, last year I secured temporary promotion for 3 months (this was just offered to me on a call), and then secured substantive promotion subsequently through a competitive application process and interview. In practice, if you are already in role on a temporary basis and you have been performing well, you have a pretty good chance of making that permanent. And many other examples of that in my organisation. However I have also known of people failing to make their promotion permanent - this of course can happen where there might have been performance issues during the temporary promotion, or where simply put there is a much better external candidate. But fair to say that where it is pretty close, the internal candidate will probably win out.

lincroft1710

Emmia said:

lincroft1710 said:

Emmia said:

TELLIT01 said:

lincroft1710 said:

TELLIT01 said:

Just to add to my previous comment.  I gained promotion at several employers without the jobs being advertised. I was simply asked if I wanted the role.  All in the private sector, as public sector often have their own requirements for jobs to be advertised internally and externally even if they have already decided who is going to get the job.  I saw that scenario more than once.

When I was in the CS, my first promotion was my manager saying to me at 4.00 pm "there's a promotion vacancy in X office (a town 60 miles away). Do you want it? Let me know by tomorrow" !.

That sounds like a sensible manager taking the pragmatic approach to filling a role.  More power to people like that.  I once applied for a role which required two very specific and totally unrelated skillset, which I had.  I must have been one of very few who could make that claim.  I had a letter within a week saying my application had been unsuccessful so I contacted their HR department to express my surprise.  They waffled on a bit trying to explain/justify the decision.  I then asked directly if they had been forced to advertise externally despite already having identified an internal candidate.  The response was "I can't answer that question", which actually did answer the question.

That's an unusual situation for a permanent CS promotion, a 6 month temporary promotion more likely but substantive promotions normally require a competitive application and interview process.

Years ago some CS departments had their own grades, which were not always allied to the usual CS grades. If a sudden vacancy occurred which needed filling quickly, senior managers would look at the people in the grade below, with the (usually specialist) knowledge and potential to encompass the skills needed in the higher grade. If they found someone (sometimes only one person fitted the bill), offer the promotion, vacancy filled, work gets done.

That was years ago though - it's not in my experience as a current CS to be the usual process now. Formal promotions are competitive, and require an application, blind sift and interview.

Level transfer can happen as you describe, but a promotion only happens like this on a temporary basis for a maximum of 6 months (occasionally up to 12 if filling a maternity leave vacancy), and even that route normally has some degree of application and competition for the post.

I don't know if it's the same in other departments or if it has changed, but the VOA always (or seemed to) promoted in house. Also in the early 2000s there were "paper boards", no interviews, at most completing a questionnaire. But probably all changed now.

Emmia

lincroft1710 said:

Emmia said:

lincroft1710 said:

Emmia said:

TELLIT01 said:

lincroft1710 said:

TELLIT01 said:

Just to add to my previous comment.  I gained promotion at several employers without the jobs being advertised. I was simply asked if I wanted the role.  All in the private sector, as public sector often have their own requirements for jobs to be advertised internally and externally even if they have already decided who is going to get the job.  I saw that scenario more than once.

When I was in the CS, my first promotion was my manager saying to me at 4.00 pm "there's a promotion vacancy in X office (a town 60 miles away). Do you want it? Let me know by tomorrow" !.

That sounds like a sensible manager taking the pragmatic approach to filling a role.  More power to people like that.  I once applied for a role which required two very specific and totally unrelated skillset, which I had.  I must have been one of very few who could make that claim.  I had a letter within a week saying my application had been unsuccessful so I contacted their HR department to express my surprise.  They waffled on a bit trying to explain/justify the decision.  I then asked directly if they had been forced to advertise externally despite already having identified an internal candidate.  The response was "I can't answer that question", which actually did answer the question.

That's an unusual situation for a permanent CS promotion, a 6 month temporary promotion more likely but substantive promotions normally require a competitive application and interview process.

Years ago some CS departments had their own grades, which were not always allied to the usual CS grades. If a sudden vacancy occurred which needed filling quickly, senior managers would look at the people in the grade below, with the (usually specialist) knowledge and potential to encompass the skills needed in the higher grade. If they found someone (sometimes only one person fitted the bill), offer the promotion, vacancy filled, work gets done.

That was years ago though - it's not in my experience as a current CS to be the usual process now. Formal promotions are competitive, and require an application, blind sift and interview.

Level transfer can happen as you describe, but a promotion only happens like this on a temporary basis for a maximum of 6 months (occasionally up to 12 if filling a maternity leave vacancy), and even that route normally has some degree of application and competition for the post.

I don't know if it's the same in other departments or if it has changed, but the VOA always (or seemed to) promoted in house. Also in the early 2000s there were "paper boards", no interviews, at most completing a questionnaire. But probably all changed now.

Many promotions involve people already in the organisation, but it's still an application,  blind sift, formal interview (not a manager tapping you on the shoulder...)

Your VOA example was about 20 years ago, lots has changed in the CS since then.

lincroft1710

Emmia said:

lincroft1710 said:

Emmia said:

lincroft1710 said:

Emmia said:

TELLIT01 said:

lincroft1710 said:

TELLIT01 said:

Just to add to my previous comment.  I gained promotion at several employers without the jobs being advertised. I was simply asked if I wanted the role.  All in the private sector, as public sector often have their own requirements for jobs to be advertised internally and externally even if they have already decided who is going to get the job.  I saw that scenario more than once.

When I was in the CS, my first promotion was my manager saying to me at 4.00 pm "there's a promotion vacancy in X office (a town 60 miles away). Do you want it? Let me know by tomorrow" !.

That sounds like a sensible manager taking the pragmatic approach to filling a role.  More power to people like that.  I once applied for a role which required two very specific and totally unrelated skillset, which I had.  I must have been one of very few who could make that claim.  I had a letter within a week saying my application had been unsuccessful so I contacted their HR department to express my surprise.  They waffled on a bit trying to explain/justify the decision.  I then asked directly if they had been forced to advertise externally despite already having identified an internal candidate.  The response was "I can't answer that question", which actually did answer the question.

That's an unusual situation for a permanent CS promotion, a 6 month temporary promotion more likely but substantive promotions normally require a competitive application and interview process.

Years ago some CS departments had their own grades, which were not always allied to the usual CS grades. If a sudden vacancy occurred which needed filling quickly, senior managers would look at the people in the grade below, with the (usually specialist) knowledge and potential to encompass the skills needed in the higher grade. If they found someone (sometimes only one person fitted the bill), offer the promotion, vacancy filled, work gets done.

That was years ago though - it's not in my experience as a current CS to be the usual process now. Formal promotions are competitive, and require an application, blind sift and interview.

Level transfer can happen as you describe, but a promotion only happens like this on a temporary basis for a maximum of 6 months (occasionally up to 12 if filling a maternity leave vacancy), and even that route normally has some degree of application and competition for the post.

I don't know if it's the same in other departments or if it has changed, but the VOA always (or seemed to) promoted in house. Also in the early 2000s there were "paper boards", no interviews, at most completing a questionnaire. But probably all changed now.

Many promotions involve people already in the organisation, but it's still an application,  blind sift, formal interview (not a manager tapping you on the shoulder...)

Your VOA example was about 20 years ago, lots has changed in the CS since then.

I'm not surprised it's changed, it changed whilst I was there. The grades changed titles 2 if not 3 times, one grade was abolished. With the advent of personal computers with word processors, typists were no longer needed in local offices, so typing grades were abolished. From what I have read on these boards, you can go for an interview for a CS position, pass the interview, but wait months until you are offered a position (if you are lucky enough to be offered one).