MSE News: Government changes how the Energy Price Guarantee should be applied to Economy 7 tariffs

Spoonie_Turtle

dealyboy said:

Sorry ... dumb question No. 2 ...

Does this mean they are changing the break even point of 58:42 to 50:50 so that all E7 users will be worse off?

Edit:
Or is it that the 58:42 day:night will be retained but that the price difference between day and night tariffs will narrow? 

That one.

dealyboy

Thanks Spoonie ...

Spoonie_Turtle said:

dealyboy said:

Sorry ... dumb question No. 2 ...

Does this mean they are changing the break even point of 58:42 to 50:50 so that all E7 users will be worse off?

Edit:
Or is it that the 58:42 day:night will be retained but that the price difference between day and night tariffs will narrow? 

That one.

... so am I right in saying that E7 users will pay more than they otherwise would because of this welcome change achieved by Martin? at the very least E7 users will pay no less unless they're on E7 when they really should be on a single rate tariff.

When the E7 tariff changes will come in to comply with the new guidance is not known, but it is likely that we are about to be in the final quarter of the EPG, during spring/early summer.

It may just be that Martin's E7 'fairer system' will become an E7 folly.

Spoonie_Turtle

dealyboy said:

Thanks Spoonie ...

Spoonie_Turtle said:

dealyboy said:

Sorry ... dumb question No. 2 ...

Does this mean they are changing the break even point of 58:42 to 50:50 so that all E7 users will be worse off?

Edit:
Or is it that the 58:42 day:night will be retained but that the price difference between day and night tariffs will narrow? 

That one.

... so am I right in saying that E7 users will pay more than they otherwise would because of this welcome change achieved by Martin? at the very least E7 users will pay no less unless they're on E7 when they really should be on a single rate tariff.

When the E7 tariff changes will come in to comply with the new guidance is not known, but it is likely that we are about to be in the final quarter of the EPG, during spring/early summer.

It may just be that Martin's E7 'fairer system' will become an E7 folly.

I have no idea, to be honest.  It's making my head hurt!

dealyboy

... sorry I'll give up ... I'm paying 6.99p night rate at the moment, not counting my chickens 

PeterGr

dealyboy said:

When the E7 tariff changes will come in to comply with the new guidance is not known, but it is likely that we are about to be in the final quarter of the EPG, during spring/early summer.

I think the E7 rates published by EDF for 1 April already comply with this "new guidance"   The regional tariffs all are 16.6 p/kWh less than the peak and off-peak rates published to comply with the OFGEM price cap on 27 February which uses the 58% : 42% ratio for a consumption of 4200 kWh.  I assume this will apply to all the other providers.

EssexHebridean

wrf12345 said:

It is a pity the government did not conclude that having a low night rate is pointless if the day rate is more than the normal capped rate for - a long time fraud on consumers but just about what you expect from the energy companies.

Could you explain why you feel that users on E7 tariffs should be paying below the EPG rates assuming the 52/48 split,  when those on single rate tariffs are tied to that rate? 

Scot_39

mmmmikey said:

Checking the EPG discounts for EDF - E7 - East Midlands they already apply the same 16.6p + VAT discount to both day and night rates from April onwards, and that is what they did from Oct-Dec. It was only from Jan-Mar that they applied a smaller discount to the night time rate, presumably because if they had applied the whole amount to some regions it would have made night time electricty in those regions < 0 - i.e. you would be paid for doing it. So this change will make no difference at all for EDF customers but the underlying situation is still that high night time users are only seing big increases now because their pries had previously gone down when others were going up substantially. High night time users (like me) are the winners in this situation, not in any way unfairly disadvantaged - the issue is that the % increase needed to bring things back to normal is in some cases huge.

But don't think they did in Jan

I was looking for another reason - and it's a few months ago - but from memory - I think it was a lower discount on night than day - but it was on one of their cheaper night rates.

Found this in an old post, using what I beleive were the links to Jan EDF pricing tables

"EDF tables etc suggest the 33.4p (31.8p+VAT) doesn't always get applied equally to their cheapest night rates

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/government_energy_price_guarantee_prices._standard_variable_deemed_and_welcome._credit_meters.pdf

Or pre discount

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/ofgem_default_tariff_cap_prices._standard_variable_deemed_and_welcome_-_credit.pdf  

e.g

EM DD N 33.92-5.88=28.04, D 89.29-51.92=37.37.

Do the same in eastern DD E7 for instance - and it's the same on both day and night"

Of course if had applied the full 31.84p+VAT = 33.43p to that night rate - it would have been c0.5p

So arguably they might have split the raw tariff differently instead under the new rule.

Did anyone with EDF download and keep those tables - and so check these figures against their copy - and figures and maths correct ?

dealyboy

Hi @PeterGr ...

PeterGr said:

dealyboy said:

When the E7 tariff changes will come in to comply with the new guidance is not known, but it is likely that we are about to be in the final quarter of the EPG, during spring/early summer.

I think the E7 rates published by EDF for 1 April already comply with this "new guidance"   The regional tariffs all are 16.6 p/kWh less than the peak and off-peak rates published to comply with the OFGEM price cap on 27 February which uses the 58% : 42% ratio for a consumption of 4200 kWh.  I assume this will apply to all the other providers.

I think you're right, it has already happened, that explains it.

The OP's news is a few weeks late but explains the rationale.

edited to include table:

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/dm1920_pl1_rate_card_builed_aw5.pdf

16.6 p/kWh less ===> 16.6 + VAT = 17.43p

TheElectricCow

Putting the slightly convoluted nature of the facts to one side, I can’t help but feel like this is another “prepayment customers will pay the same as direct debit” situation where in reality many people have ended up paying more than they otherwise were as some of the “unfair rates” which have now been changed appear to have been preferential to them in the first place.

Yes theres some argument to be made around how the price cap should be shared between day and night rates, but with figures like 7p off-peak being on offer previously it’s hard to say those people are losing out regardless of what’s going on with the cap.

Scot_39

As in my EDF example above,  the lower discount on night, was reflected by a higher discount on day.

So depending on usage, impact of EPG varied, making it equal means all users benefit equally regardless of usage split.

But it is to my perhaps naive thinking, perhaps irrelevent.  Because EDF could have achieved the same by setting a less aggressive (I.e. closer) day night tariff difference, then applied the discount equally. Giving effectively the same sort of final pricing.

And the only thing that matters is the result the 5.8p night in that example for heavy users.

About 1/5th the single rate EPG price - a bargain by anyone's standards.

And a 1/3 to a 1/4 what other restricted meter customers were paying.

To expect them to keep same split and charge 0.5p - unrealistic.

But then there was that sub 1p prepay rate in one region.  So maybe not.